I just bought a decoder equipped Dash 9 (N scale). I don't have DCC set up on my layout yet, but I put the engine on the track to test it anyway. The engine works, but the lights won't come on in either direction and the motor kind of makes a screeching sound when it runs....fairly loud. Can someone tell me what might be wrong? Is the motor bad??
I can't answer the question about the motor sound but the lights I can answer. Lights on decoder equiped locomotives are controlled by function outputs from the decoder. To turn them on or off you must send a signal through the rails to tell the decoder to turn them on. You can only do this if you are running DCC through the rails not DC.
Normally it is the other way around. If you put a DC locomotive on DCC powered track, you get the high pitch whine, that is until the locomotive is moving at a pretty good clip. I don't every remember hearing any unusual noise when I have placed a DCC equiped locomotive on DC track.
If you had ever used one of your mom's spring clothes pins to clip a playing card to your bicycle fender to make it drag on the wheel's spokes to make the "motor" sound; you would have recognized the distinctive sound in an instant! You found that the tip of the insulating tape was dragging on the segments of the motor armature and that will sound like a high pitched whiney buzz. HA!
I am a techno nut so don't take this as criticism but rather a general observation to all. (I think Watash will appreciate it) I read the whole thread at the Atlas forum and everyone was discussing all the technical jargon associated with the computer chip and what to program and how to connect the wires. Only one person said that it was probably mechanical. I have noticed this trend in the Auto industry, with home appliances and of course our hobby. The more computerized that contraptions get, the more people overlook the obvious mechanical fixes. (This is why I get worried when I go get my car fixed- They always seem to be replacing computers but my wheels still wobble LOL) Please don't let technology make you overlook anything nor perform any tasks that you are capable of doing yourself! Russ
Hehehe.... Why is that tape there anyway? It appeared to me that it wasn't necessary. The motor is isolated from the frame anyway. The only contacts it has for conducting electricity are those two little copper strips that contact with the decoder (or light board as the case may be without a decoder). [ 20. January 2003, 19:28: Message edited by: Hoss ]
I suspected all along it was mechanical. I figured either the gears were messed up or something was wrong in the motor itself. Aside from the problem with the lights (which still don't work on DC but do on DCC), I wasn't worried about it being a technology problem. I was afraid the motor was bad. The lights are most definitely related to the chip though...
I also do not own any DCC locos. Can someone tell me what special things the lights can do since they are hooked up to a computer chip? Just curious as I have only seen the lights either on or off at N-trak shows. (If that is all that they do, should they really be connected to a chip?) Thanks for any answers!!! Russ
Lights are just ONE of the cool things you can do with DCC. The REAL advantage to DCC, in my opinion, is prototypical operation of trains. You "control the trains and not the track." You can run two engines head to head...or make them have a head on collision if you want. You can't do that on standard DC operations. The lights though...can do lots of cool things if they're set up that way. You can have strobes, warbles, alternating flashing, beacons...you name it. You can also be more prototypical in a consist of locos because you can turn all of the lights off except on the lead engine.... I think that's what you were asking....
Also, the lights are of a constant brightness (if you want). You can also dim lights for approaching trains. In other words, they have nothing to do with the speed of the motor. The computer chip controls everything about the lights. You can have multiple lights that operate independently of each other. This means you can have seperate number board lights, headlights, mars light, and strobe lights. All independently controlled. You could have the headlight on Function 0, the mars light on function 1, the strobe on function 2, the number boards on function 3. That way if you have your locomotive just sitting in the yard you can have just your number boards illuminated. Then when the crew picks up the locomotive they could turn on the headlight. When they are ready to head out on the road they could turn on the mars light. There is really no limit with what that little computer chip can do with any light you can think of. David
Just a comment, now, not meant to dash anyone in the head. Its just how I feel. I have operated a layout in the dark just running on the headlight, street lights, and lighted signals. I have even bashed two engines, together on a DC layout (at a block separation), so it can be done! No harm done, they were just cheap plastic diesels, not steamers, and I trashed the pieces but kept the trucks. It was actually an accident. (OOPS!) I guess, while you guys would be "fiddling" with the lights, I would be switching cars around. So far, as I can see from my point of interest, the only advantage of DCC to me, would be, being able to make an engine actually creep into a couple without having to bang the cars together at 20 miles an hour to hook up. Unless One of the cars is sitting over a K-D magnet, K-D's wont couple, they just push the car away. Even my Dad's scale operatring knuckle couplers needed a slight nudge to make the pin drop. I enjoy backing into a couple as slowly as I can get the engine to move and watch the hook on an old Mantua coupler as the hook falls and be able to stop the engine before hitting the car. Then be able to flip into forward and pull the car away and not jostle my passengers! Because I run with the room lights on, I seldom know if the headlight is on or not, and wouldn't care anyway, because I am fastinated watching the side rods and valve gear working. A diesel doesn't "do" anything but crawl along like a worm, looking great in pretty paint, but I am not that fond of worms. You see, I got old, and my tastes changed over the years. At one time when I was younger, I was as caught up in all the new techno stuff as you guys are today. That doesn't make either of us a freak, it is just our differing ways we enjoy our hobby. I get bored fast at some guy's house when he is going blah-blah about some football game while he is trying to show me his layout with a diesel train running round and round. Then when he askes, "What do you think of that?" I have no idea if he is talking about his train, the football game, or his fat wife as we followed her up the stairs. (She was about 300 pounds of grosse!)
Watash, ol' buddy, I used to have the same opinion about DCC & Command control in general and it was bolstered by the ancient system used by our train club. We lost a lot of prospect members because they couldn't run their new locos without investing the same price or more for a gizmo to make it run on the layout. For years after, I saw the ads for Digitrax and said 'nope!, been there , done that, didn't like it! I met a good friend who invited me to come operate his layout, he models the Santa Fe over Cajon Pass in HO Scale circa 1955. My first "assignment" was to provide helper assist to 'The Chief' out of San Bernadino yard Eastbound over 'The Summit'. I was assigned a 3700 class Northern for the job. My first Oooo! came as the hostler brought her out from the water plug. Ted uses Digitrax and has equipped most of his steamers with lights and sound. She put on a heck of a show just getting to the front of the express, I couldn't wait to take her up the hill!!! That old girl didn't dissapoint me one bit as we left town with the bell clanking, stack barking, rods flashing and a little round feller at the throttle, that decided right then that maybe there was something to all this 'technology' after all. Now I'm not gonna tell you that you're crazy if you don't stop everything and invest in DCC, but I will say that if you can get the opertunaty to operate on a good layout that has DCC, you owe it to yourself to at least experience the magic. 2slim
Imagine if you will: The coal drag stops at the approach to the mountain pass to take on water and have a helper added to the rear. As both engines labor loudly up the grade, stacks blowing black, sand spraying, steam hissing, they slowly make it to the summit. The helper then uncouples and reverses back down the grade, opposite direction, different speed, all on the SAME TRACK. Try do that realistically on DC rail.
Funny how this thing went from helping me figure out my loco to a debate on whether DCC was any good or not. Watash....I respect your thoughts....though I disagree with them. I have operated both DC and DCC and that is exactly why I'm building my new layout with DCC. It's more than just the lights. As far as steam verses diesel....well, for you OLDER boys, I can see where you might like steam. Personally, I like diesel. I grew up watching diesel and still love watching them today. Sure...steam is fun to watch too....but it's old and outdated.....kind of like DC.
Don't want to get argumentative here, but we can, and have, managed that type of operation on standard DC, it only needs a minimum of three electrical blocks to accomplish it. The big advantage I can see by doing that sort of thing by DCC is that a second engineer could be controlling the helper all the way up the hill, which would be extremely difficult to do with DC. Otherwise, on DC, it would go something like this: The train is stopped at the bottom of the hill, just as in the previous illustration. The loco is on one block, (which is switched off,) and you take a helper from the helper pocket behind the stopped train on a separate section, and couple to the caboose. Turn the head end section back on, and your train will move off up the hill. At the summit you need two blocks again, the train loco passes into the second block and stops, the helper is uncoupled, and a separate cab can take the helper back down the hill whilst the train loco starts forward again. Not that complicated really. I should probably admit that we have also managed head on collisions on DC as well....non neccesarily at the end of blocks either! (ain't push-pull operation great!)
Hoss, I did try to operate a DCC controlled engine from an invite, back when I only had 48 steamers (I wouldn't tear up to install DCC PC boards in), and 20 some odd diesels, (all cheap Tyco and Athearns) so not worth the cost of DCC to me at the time. Thanks for agreeing to disacree Hoss, I think it is the difference in when we grew up. I realize I am of the old school, my first toy was a rock. My first train was a wind up spring run 040 Commadore Vanderbuilt, painted a sick pea green. The first electrically driven toy engine was in 1934. So trying to teach me is like trying to teach a Gorilla DCC. I is dumber than dirt on elecatrically stuffin's! I guess if I would have the time and incentive to learn what buttons to push and what the long list of code meant or was supposed to do, I could get quick enough to run the engine. As it was, By the time I could look up what buttons to push to slow down, the engine was already out of sight around the bend and into a tunnel. I thought it had stopped, so I pushed the several codes to get it to back up into sight again, but we waited and finally he had to go fish it out of the tunnel. I tried again, this time as soon as it started to move, I tried to stop it and it stopped before it got into the tunnel. He didn't tell me I had to re-enter the code to start pushing buttons again to start backwards, so I had crossed up the signals someway or other and it just froze. Today I have over 60 steamers, and I think I would not be able to sell the car and wife for enough to afford to go DCC even if it would work on my layout. I think it is what we get used to, and at 72 I am probably too old to learn a whole new language when it is so simple to just twist my rehostat and flip a dpdt switch to operate my engines with no additional cost. I have only played computer games a few times, (and never did master Space Invaders), while you guys have grown up doing programming and playing with the coding and are familiar with paying the (to me) exorbitant prices for all the "extras" to make an engine run. I built engines from bar and sheet stock, and from kits, and they are still running today. My imagination produced the bells and whistles and all the sand and smoke. You guys searching for realism have lost your imagination. Now sound, ......well, I did hear one engine operate on sound a guy had built, that when running very slowly would give 4 loud barks of high stack pressure each revolution of a driver, then smooth out to chuffs at medium and higher speeds. That was impressive! His wife finally came and asked us to turn the volume down so she could hear the TV. I would have the same problem. The only other sound I have heard would only chuff twice per revolution, so was more laughable than realistic. I have found the paper insulation used during assembly, on motors before, that happened to touch the armature or a gear, and produce the whine noise. I either snip it away with tiny surgical sissors or just pull it out. Until I can find another clock maker's gear cutting nachine I can afford, the major problem I find that bothers me today, is those cheap plastic gears. I have a beautiful Athearn diesel I did enjoy running to test track with, until a peculiar gear wore out, and Athearn told me they no longer produced parts for that model. NWSL also does not have that one gear. Someone seriously suggested I go to DCC to fix it. I can NOT understand how an electrical fix will cure a mechanical problem! But then I'm an ME not an EE so what do I know? You were correct in the first place Hoss, you should trust your own good judgement before asking an electrician for advice about a mechanical problem. My wife says everything I have is so old, no one knows how to run it but me, so maybe I should donate it all to the Smithsonian! FAT CHANCE! [ 24. January 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: watash ]
May I say that DCC is not for everyone. There are some advantages, but then DCC can be expensive. The decoders alone for a small engine roster, not to mention the extra dollars needed for converting non-DCC compatable locos, can create a large investment. If a person is satisfied or comfortable with DC/analog, then he/she is a happy engineer . I do have DCC and am very pleased with my transition and would not go back. But I was very reluctant to make that move to DCC cause I thought it was this mysterious electronic beast. Tho' there is a learning curve that must be accomplished before enjoyable running can be experienced. In essence, to each his own!
