Does anyone have information or can point me to resources on how trains used to work in the pre-Grouping days in the UK? My son and I are working on a Thomas-the-Tank-Engine branch line layout using the Tomix engines and rolling stock and we'd like to actually operate it.
Well Doug, branch lines over here were not run anything like the Thomas books There were lots of small stations, each with sidings for local produce, milk churns, etc. Passenger trains were short, sometimes only one coach, and they collected parcels, chickens, in fact, anything which needed transporting before most goods went to road haulage. The local sidings along the branch were shunted by the "pick-up" goods, which went from station to station collecting and delivering wagons as needed. Lots of exhibition layouts here are based on the branch line operation, and are run as terminus to fiddle yard (off-stage staging). Good luck
Sounds fun! If you have any specific questions then please do ask & I'm sure one or other of the Brit's on the list can help.... From my (hazy) memories of the books Thomas must have been set in at least the 1950's, which is post nationalisation, as the diesels which appear in various stories are all designs built for BR. I guess this means that the railways of Sodor were operating outside the nationalised system. A branch line station over here would typically have a passenger platform, a run-round track, and a few freight sidings, there's a few things which are pretty different to the US. Usually there's no facilities for turning the loco, (no wye or turntable) although sometimes there's a small single road engine servicing shed. Lack of turning is at least one of the reasons for using small tank style loco's, they can pull trains backwards with few visibility problems. Rather than the freight sidings serving specific companies or industries as is common in the US, a more common set up here would be to have a goods shed (freighthouse) on one siding, a coal dealer on another, and possibly a cattle dock on yet another. Freight stock in that time era was predominantly 2 axle short wagons, often wooden bodied, often with only hand brakes. I reckon if you're putting Thomas in a logical setting then having British Railways wagons running through onto the other system would be logical, so that should work. An alternative idea could be a modern day "heritage" (Tourist) line, many of these have Thomas replica's of various heritages and accuracies running about, plus lots of other loco's with faces! Hope that's some help!
Thank you both very very much. You gave us some great ideas. We looked up some of the diesels in the films and they are BR designs - which would move our era forward a bit more than I suspected. We had pondered the lack of industry sidings - being able to use the coaches to carry all LcL freight will be fun. I we also noticed the relatively high station platforms on only 'one' side of the tracks and the crossing bridges. Lack of turning facilities will make things more interesting too.
We are both fascinated by British operating practices of early nationalisatin period. If I might pose a few follow-up questions, Alan noted a 'pick-up' goods was the functional equivalent to a local freight - were these run 'regularly' on a timetable or as needed? Would either of you recommend a book or exhibition layout website that might show more information? (We've used Alan's Steam Gallery website to good effect.) We've had a heck of a time locating a caboose or brake van - while in Hong Kong last month, I purchased a Kato JNR version which might work. I understand these were very important because the 2 axle wagons didn't have their own airbrakes. Did the conductor or guard ride the van and detrain to switch the sidings or were the switches mostly operated by a tower operator?
Doug, on fairly busy routes there was often a morning and an afternoon pick up freight. It all depended on the level of traffic, and could also be seasonal in agricultural areas. Around where I live, sugar beet harvest was a very busy time for local stations. All beets were loaded onto wagons, and the pick-up would collect them all along a route, to be delivered to the nearest sugar beet processing factory. The one in our town closed a few years ago. The brake vans (or guard's vans) were essential on early wagons without fitted brakes, to add braking to the rear of the train by screwing down a hand brake. I have ridden in brake vans, and they were noisy, bumpy, draughty, uncomfortable things! The guard could operate turnouts at local station sidings, or there could be a local "shunter" stationed there if it was a busy place. But all turnouts on the main lines were operated by a signalman (tower man), from a signal box (switch tower). Often several signal boxes would cover a larger place, as most turnouts were manually operated by rigid rodding and cranks. Here are a couple of preserved brake vans we had a ride in last year at Barrow Hill Roundhouse open day.
Wow, Alan. Thanks very much for your insights - the picture was worth 1,000 words. Now have to look for a signal box model!
Yep, high platforms are a neccesity, on most branch line stations you would get just one passenger track which ran along side, though if the branch was busy enough to need two passenger trains to pass there may be a station at the midpoint with a passing loop (passing siding) and both would have a platform so trains passing in opposite directions could pass & both call at the station. Oh, another thing, the right of way is always fenced off. It's the law in this country, passengers usually gained access to the train via the station building (depot). Ref model brake vans, Minitrix did a model of the BR van that Alan's pic is of, these were very common. Graham Farish (now owned by Bachmann) also lists a brake van in it's range, but availability of this range has been patchy of late. Just a thought, but is N scale the right choice, I have to say there is a lot more available in OO (which is HO compatible), just a thought, and there are some very nicely modelled small loco's in that scale, plus Hornby also does a Thomas range. Obviously if you've already got the stuff then that's less of an issue.
Hello Doug, Here are a few photos to illustrate the good old pick-up goods train that Alan and Martyn have mentioned. The loco is a pannier tank of Great Western Railway design and the train consists of a number of short and long wheelbase 2 axle wooden bodied vans and a brake van. Here the loco is in the process of running round it's train at the end of the line and re-positioning the brake van so that it is at the rear. The brake van is a slightly different design to the ones in Alan's photos (All the privatised railway companies had their own designs and this one is a Great Western Railway example) The photo also shows the high passenger platforms and a fairly typical signal box. This long wheelbase van was used to transport fruit and other perishables and could sometimes be seen attached to passenger trains. A shot taken from the veranda of the brake van with the tank loco running in reverse. All these photos were taken at the Llangollen Railway museum in North Wales. Until the 1960's this line was a typical British branchline. John.
These pictures make we want to get some British running stock! I have a Thomas and two lady passenger cars. However, my Thomas will be hauling beer cars as soon as I find the proper decal for the faces! The best I can do right now is attach a Deutsche Bahn beer car after Thomas and before the ladies! By the way, the face decal I'm looking for came with a helicopter kit back in the seventies. It's a picture of a drunken leprechaun with bubbles coming up beside the face. Only seems appropriate for a Thomas car, don't you think? Bob
Young Thomas turned into a drunken leprechan? Saints preserve us! Thanks again for all your insights. I agree the range of N scale Thomas or British outline steam for that matter isn't as impressive as what HO/OO seems to be. I can only go by what I see in an occasional Railway Modeller picked up here in a Borders bookstore. I'm mightily impressed with the modelling. I sure wish it was easier to obtain British outline N scale here in the States. I sure like what we can do in a 3 x 5 ft. space - and Tomix is said to be coming out with a Gordon or Percy yet. It's more a matter of working with what we already have...
I hope you guys can help a slightly confused railroad employee. I am a conductor for the New York Susquehanna and Western Ry. and I really dont know if british freight trains have brakes on the cars as I never see any hoses connected between the cars. I just read that they dont is this true or am I reading this wrong? Thank you guys for the help
Jose, the old British cars (like their American cousins) had friction brakes. The brake car just had very good friction brakes. It was designed to slow down the cars when the engine was braking. No hoses because no air! Makes you wonder! Bob
Thank you Bob, but is this still true or do they have air brakes like we do? I have never seen photos of big freight or "goods" trains like we handle here in the U.S. over in the U.K.
Freight trains in the UK used to be either vacuum braked, or loose-coupled (no brakes), but some areas used Westinghouse air brakes. More and more wagons were fitted with vacuum brakes as older ones were retired. Now I believe that all vehicles are air braked, but our freight trains are nowhere near as long as those in the US (we don't have the space)
Here's a bit more info to expand on what Alan said, though kind of going away from the traditional UK "pick up goods". Historically the standard braking system in the UK is the vacuum brake, it works sort of the opposite way to the air brake, in that instead of air pressure in the pipe holding the brakes off, a vacuum in the pipe holds the brakes off, if there is a break in the pipe air rushes in and the brakes come on on all portions of the train. Same concept as the air brake you're all familiar with but working the opposite way round. It tends to take longer to charge & works slower than the air brake, but with shorter train lengths that's not so much of a problem. Passenger trains have been continously braked over here since waaaay back.... There were a few freight traffic flows in the UK using air brakes pre-1960's, but AFAIK they were very specific flows of block (unit) trains with assigned loco's & wagons, it wasn't "loose" freight vehicles. Pre BR (1948) most freights were unbraked (or rather had handbrakes only on the wagons) so a brake van was essential in controlling the train. At a nasty downgrade the train would stop and the crew would apply the handbrakes to a number of vehicles before making the descent. Obviously the companies had realised that this was a pretty antiquated way of doing things and the vacuum system was gradually being introduced, though complicated by large numbers of old privately owned coal wagons. "Fully fitted" (continuously braked) freights were then allowed higher operating speeds. There was also the "partially fitted" version, where wagons with continuous brakes were placed behind the loco's, so there was partial train braking from the cab, and partial from the brake van. BR made a start on modernising the fleet and eventually specified vac. brakes on all new wagons, although this was totally messed up by union problems, as at mines/power stations the wagons had to be split individually to be loaded & unloaded, and the crews refused to connect & disconnect brake pipes! This led to massive numbers of 1950's built steel open wagons built with no brakes despite everything else being built having them! Around the early 1960's there was a serious attempt to introduce the air brake, in an attemt to allow faster (75mph) freight trains, new airbrake only wagons were built for coal & container traffic (& others), passenger stock started to be converted, and new builds came with either dual (air & vac) or just air brakes. In the 70's you got the fun situation where you had wagons that were unbraked, wagons that had vacuum brakes and wagons that were air braked, all having to be run together, and so the partially fitted freight made something of a comeback! Lots of wagons got vacuum or air "through pipes", the idea was that a vacuum braked wagon might have an air brake pipe only (no connection to the brakes) so that it could be run at the front of an airbraked train as an unbraked wagon, but there would be enough brake force behind the unbraked vehicle for it to be regarded as a fully fitted train. During the '70s the TOPS codes for hauled stock came in, which gave an easily recognisable code of what had what brakes in the 3rd letter of the TOPS code, for example, the BR standard (brown) brake van in Alan's pics above was a CA? with the third letter denoting the brake code, such as: CAO - Handbrake only CAP - Handbrake & through vac pipe CAR - Handbrake & dual (air & vac) though pipes Some of the brake codes are: A - Airbrake & Handbrake B - Airbrake, Handbrake & Vacuum pipe. O - Handbrake only P - Handbrake & Vac Piped only Q - Handbrake & Air Piped only R - Handbrake with Air & Vac pipes V - Vacuum brake & handbrake W - Vacuum brake, air piped plus handbrake. X - Air & Vacuum brakes, plus handbrake. So you could use A, B and X vehicles in the same train, fully braked, and throw in a couple of Q or R ones without affecting performance. By the late 80's virtually all (all?) loco hauled passenger trains were airbrake, though there was still a nice mix of freight equipment. Bringing it up to the present day, virtually all trains are continuously air braked, those that aren't are continuously vac braked, only engineers (MOW) workings where lower speeds are less of an issue really use this nowadays, and that usage is getting less & less. Brake vans have virtually dissapeared since the mid 80's, and only exist now where there is a need for an employee at the rear of a train, such as a long backup move or manual crossing gates to close behind the train, a similar situation to the caboose in the US. Hope that was understandable (and didn't have too many errors ) BTW John, really nice pics there of the Llangollen, I really must get out there one of these days! All the best!
May I have your feedback on our first operations attempt? Our layout is a somewhat squiggly oval, linked to another half oval within it. Near one turnout, there are a few sidings - two in either direction. First off, our tank engine is fired up in its small engine house at the end of one siding, and moves out to replenish water and coal. It backs in to pick up two coaches along its parallel siding, then moves forward into the station stop along a third siding. All these moves are watched over by a switch box strategically placed where it watches over three of these turnouts. After loading at the station, the train backs out onto the inner half-oval, and moves forward onto the main line. After a few times around, the train re-enters the half-oval and enters the station. More on freight in a moment.
Very interesting infomation. So we did the freights or rather goods train wrong then - Rather than setting out and picking up individual wagons at 'industries' located on each siding, a train made up of an engine with only a few wagons would enter the branch line and drop the wagons for unloading at the goods shed. Then would it be serviced while the wagons were unloaded and ready to go back? Or would it go back empty to come back again another day? I figured it would be rare for an engine to stay over at the branch station. Am I right in assuming a mixed goods train would be rather rare on a branch line?
Doug, You are correct in assuming that the loco would be prepared in its own loco shed with adjacent coaling and watering facilities. It would then be coupled to its passenger coaches (cars) in a siding before moving into the station. On lines that closed completely for the night it was also common for the coaches to be kept in the station platform so eliminating the need for a separate siding. You then say that the train, after loading, carries out a couple of shunting (switching) moves before leaving on the mainline. This is the part of the operation that concerns me. British stations are usually arranged so that once loaded with passengers the train can depart in a forward direction either along the mainline or the branchline. Reversing moves especially in sidings are rarely carried out when passengers are on the train. In your example the passenger platform should ideally be on one of the loops so that passenger trains can enter from either direction without the need to reverse. Best wishes, John.
