Bluford announces second run of Bay Window cabooses.

CraigfromBlufordShops May 11, 2018

  1. CraigfromBlufordShops

    CraigfromBlufordShops TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    Hi Guys,

    The tooling for the new International Car Bay Widow Cabooses is just about done so we are announcing the SECOND run: http://bluford-shops.com/bluford_93_009.htm
    Pre-Orders on this group will remain open until at least June 22.

    Pre-Orders for the FIRST run will close on the 18th so we can get those into production.

    Craig
    Bluford Shops
    www.bluford-shops.com
     
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  2. Point353

    Point353 TrainBoard Member

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    Not a moment too soon:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. NorsemanJack

    NorsemanJack TrainBoard Member

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    Very nice! I really like that CGW version.
     
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  4. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    I can order this one, erase the NYC and car number, GlossCote, apply P&LE and appropriate number from one of the Microscale sheets, then DullCote. I was going to get one of the Jade Green and simply repaint, but now, I will wait; unless, of course, Original Poster's firm plans to do the red P&LEs. In that case, I suppose that I could wait.
     
  5. CraigfromBlufordShops

    CraigfromBlufordShops TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    You know, I don't have pictures of the P&LE cars in oxide red. Send a link if you can.

    Craig
    www.bluford-shops.com
     
  6. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    I am trying to find one. P&LE built the first ten itself (#500-509, at McKee's Rocks) in 1950, so they would have had to have been red. I did find a Howard Fogg painting of one, #500, with a bunch of hoppers at Aliquippa (I also found it in my book of his paintings). Howard Fogg was well known for taking artistic licence. Most of the bay windows that he painted have the incorrect type of bay window, but he did get it correct on the painting of #500 that I cited. The only flaw in the Fogg painting of #500 at Aliquippa is that he has the white oval herald. P&LE's had the same black NYCS herald that your NYC has. That book does have paintings of one at Dickerson Run, but he has the bay window incorrectly in that one.

    I did find a couple of photographs of the low 500 Series in the Colour Guide in Jade Green. The P&LE reporting marks and numbers are in the same place as they are on the red ones. Of course, the Jade Green cabooses have the Cigar Band herald.

    I can not figure out how to post the link for #500 at Aliquippa. I must try to find my Jack Polaritz books and see if any of his photographs of the A-2a s or H-9 s/ H-10 s have a caboose in them.

    The first ten looked just like your NYC, except that the P&LE reporting marks and #500-#509 were where the NYC reporting marks and road number are,
     
  7. bman

    bman TrainBoard Member

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    In none of my travels on the internet searching for modeling info and ideas on the P&LE have I come across a bay window painted red. I'm not saying they were not red. I've just not come across a photo of one. I primarily model from around 1976 on so none of the P&LE books I own go back far enough in time except for the one on gondolas which had no photos of one. And I'm far from an expert on the P&LE as my main modeling focus is Conrail.
    Is this the Fogg painting you referenced?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pittsburgh...395761?hash=item1c9c0100f1:g:1pAAAOSwh1paPruM

    and another painting of a red bay window #501 near Wampum PA that has the proper black NYC oval herald but again the incorrect bay window.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pittsburgh...-Crossing-Wampum-Pa-Howard-Fogg-/122876398776
     
  8. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    Page sixty-seven of the Borkowski book, Pittsburgh and Lake Erie Railroad in Color (Volume Two: 1956-1976) shows #506 as photographed in 1959 at the Pittsburgh Rail Fair, in bright caboose red. This appears to be the same color as the one referenced in the Wampum painting. That work has a number of them in Jade Green as well as a few in the Independent paint schemes.

    Page 126 of the McLean book shows #512, with a full side bay window (similar to that in the Wampum painting). That one would have been built after those built in 1950. The photograph in the McLean book is black and white, so it is difficult to tell what color the carbody is, but, judging from the tones, it does appear to be oxide red as opposed to bright red, That photograph has the black oval NYCS herald (as does the one taken in 1959 of #506). The photograph in the McLean book has no date. While I do know that there were subsequent lots of these on the P&LE, I do not know exactly when they were built or who built them. I do know that they were built when P&LE was still under NYC control, which means that it would have had to have been either McKee's Rocks or Dispatch Shops. The one with the full side bay window, #512, would have been a subsequent lot, as the first lot had only ten (#500-#509). I do know that the first lot was built in 1950 at McKee's Rocks.

    The first referenced caboose, #500, is, in fact, the Howard Fogg painting to which I was referring. The bay window is correct, but the white herald is not.

    I can not find my Polaritz book on the Mikados. I looked in the book on the Berkshires, but there are no photographs of the bay windows, only the wood (P&LE did use the NYCS Standard wood caboose, as well--The Robert Ray kits had numbers and sublettering for the P&LE)


    My modelling focus is 1955 (with a few stretches, I am still running H-9s and WM steam), thus any of the Independent schemes or even the Jade Green would be out of my era (the word came down from 220 Park Avenue in 1957 to go the the Jade Green and Cigar Band pant schemes. P&LE had the money to repaint everything, so it happened quickly, there. Parent NYC was broke, so there was still equipment in oxide red, lightning stripes and even still lettered for the Boston and Albany right up to Day One of Penn Central.)

     
  9. NARLIE

    NARLIE TrainBoard Member

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    Noticed some NAR cabs. I wonder how accurate are they?
    When Athearn did the NAR boxcar it was completely inaccurate.
     
  10. CraigfromBlufordShops

    CraigfromBlufordShops TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    The NAR car design is unique to them but this is a pretty good stand-in.
    Craig
    www.bluford-shops.com
     
  11. Point353

    Point353 TrainBoard Member

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    FWIW, here's a B&W photo of 510:
    http://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt:8223.456675.RR

    And one of 511:
    http://historicpittsburgh.org/islandora/object/pitt:8223.457516.RR
     
  12. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    Numbers 510 and 511 would be from the later lot. As the photographs demonstrate, the later lot had the almost full side bay window. The tones in the photographs suggest Oxide Red, although 1960 would be late for that, as the Jade Green order came down from 200 Park Avenue in 1957, There were some exceptions (the RS-11s that showed up at Selkirk in 1960 were in Lightning Stripes, although they never ran on the NYCS). These may have been exceptions. The Jade Green would have the Cigar Band herald, not the black that the car in the photographs has.

    Those cabooses could be the bright Caboose Red, though, as the referenced 1959 photograph in the Borokowski book is a color photograph and that one (from the first lot, with the small bay window) is unmistakably bright Caboose Red. The Caboose Red would be a variation, but, P&LE did have some variations from NYCS Standards in its paint schemes (#5684, Pacemaker Green freight GP-7s, Pacemaker Green A-2a s).
     
  13. Matt Bradley

    Matt Bradley TrainBoard Member

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    Cool! I see a few I want. My poor mismanaged model railroad. For every freight car I have, there are 3 cabooses to tow behind them.
     
  14. Rich_S

    Rich_S TrainBoard Member

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    Here are the only two photo's I have of the P&LE short bay window red cabooses.
    The photo is grainy but you can kind of compare the color of the P&LE red caboose to the PRR N5 caboose right beside it along with the Century Green or Jade Green boxcar right in front of the caboose

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Notice how the short bay window cabooses changed from their built appearence.
    [​IMG]
    Here is a photo I have of one of the P&LE long bay window cabooses in the Green (Jade or Century?) scheme.
    [​IMG]

    Which to my eye is the same green as the transfer cabooses
    [​IMG]

    Hope this helps?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    brokemoto and Hardcoaler like this.
  15. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    It does help.

    Number 506 is from that first lot of ten built in 1950 at McKee's Rocks. That is the appearance that it had when built. The photograph appears to have been taken at the Pittsburgh Rail Fair. It was taken in 1957 or later, as there is a Jade Green boxcar with a Cigar Band Herald. The dress on the little girl in the foreground suggests early 1960s as the skirt lacks petticoats, although the little girl who is climbing the stair to the boxcar does appear to have petticoats, but it is not easy to tell. The garb of the single gentleman suggests early 1960s, as well.

    The shops altered them as time passed. Some of the alterations were to protect the crews from rock throwing children,

    The Jade Green was supposed to be the same across the board. It did not stand up well to the elements. That second or "long" one is from the second lot, but I am not sure who built them. It could have been McKee's Rocks, Despatch Shops or even St. Louis Car Company. By that time, I am not sure that Beech Grove was still building cabooses.

    Thank you for the photographs.
     
  16. zinker55

    zinker55 TrainBoard Supporter

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    FINALLY....Chessie, should have been on the first run.......
     
  17. Rich_S

    Rich_S TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Brokemoto, maybe you can confirm, but I believe at some point in the early 1960's the P&LE caboose color was changed from Red as seen on the 506 to brown as seen on this NYC caboose.
    [​IMG]

    Compare the NYC caboose to this black and white photo of P&LE 500, which looks to have the same white logo as the NYC caboose.

    [​IMG]

    The color changed again I believe at some point in the late 1960's to the Jade or Century green color.
    [​IMG]

    I know the final paint scheme was the New Image yellow with black lettering.

    [​IMG]

    So the best of my knowledge, from the 1950's to 1976, the P&LE cabooses wore 4 different paint schemes. I'm pretty sure all but one was retired in the P&LE new image yellow with black lettering scheme.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    The "Oxide Red" is often what it is called, but it is more brown than red. The "brown" was the standard NYCS caboose color for years. Almost all of the wood cabooses were "brown"/Oxide Red from the time that they were built until they were retired. Some of them lasted from the mid-to-late 1880s into the early 1970s. Big Four and Michigan Central had some oddballs, but P&LE and NYC used the same design wood caboose for years. The heralds on all of those were black.

    The first bay windows appeared 1948-49. The boxcar in the photograph that you provided of the Oxide Red/Brown caboose suggests late 1950s-early 1960s. The Oxide Red often turned brown after exposure to the elements. Page Ninety-Nine of the Color Guide shows a NYC caboose photographed in 1956. It, too, is brown. It is hard to tell from the photograph, but the herald on that one might be white, as well. Perhaps I was mistaken and Howard Fogg was correct when he painted the P&LE with a white herald. Original Poster is offering his NYC model with a black herald.

    The most interesting, though, is your photograph of #506. It turns out that it was taken at the 1959 Pittsburgh Rail Fair (The clothing on the people would fit 1959). The photograph that I referenced previously in the Borkowski book was taken at a different time (and possibly a different day) than the one that you posted. The signs on the cars are the same, there is an unidentified Penn caboose next to the P&LE caboose in both and the car number on the Jade Green NYC boxcar is the same in both photographs. The odds are phenomenally against those three cars being parked next to each other in different years. What is funny is that, on my computer screen, at least, the color of the caboose appears to be Oxide Red/"Brown". The color of the caboose in the Borkowski book is CLEARLY Bright Caboose Red. The heralds are black. Another curious item is that the tone of the Penn caboose is the same on my screen as it is in the Borkowski book.

    There have been those who insisted that there was a time when some of the P&LE bay windows were painted Caboose Red.

    The order came down from 220 Park Avenue in 1957 to go to Cigar Band/Jade Green. The Jade Green was also a Penn Central color. Some of the P&LE cabooses did have PC heralds, but, as a rule, the employees and Middle Management of the P&LE did not like those heralds. When PC borrowed some of the U-Boats, they acquired PC heralds. When they came back, McKee's Rocks removed them quickly. The P&LE cabooses would have been repainted any time after that, but, I suspect that it was not done until there was a major shopping.

    The Yellow is independence era. The ownership revived the old P&LE herald that disappeared after NYC control.

    Before 1957, I suspect that there might have been some painted Caboose Red and some Oxide Red/"Brown"m but which ones they were and when, I do not know. I do have the book of Howard Fogg paintings, but I can not find it right now. He has some more of the bay windows in it, but I would have to find it to see where they are and which ones. I seem to recall one with a Christmas theme that was Oxide Red/"Brown" that had a black herald, but, I would have to see it to be sure.

    The Borkowski book shows several P&LE transfer and bay window cabooses in Jade Green. Most of the photographs were taken in 1970, but there are two or three taken in 1975, including one taken at WM's yard in Connellsville, that show one in pretty good Jade Green Paint. There is one taken at the Pittsburgh Rail Fair in 1964 that shows a P&LE bay window in Jade Green.
     
  19. Rich_S

    Rich_S TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Brokemoto, I was one of the original members of the P&LEHS and it's taken some time, but I finally found my P&LE Little Giant Publications. Now to answer some questions. Caboose 506 seen above and in Rich's P&LE book "Was in it's second paint scheme at the 1959 Railroad Fair in Pittsburgh" The P&LE 500-509 series bay window cabooses were built in the McKees Rocks shops between October 1950 and January 1951. There are no known color photos of the first paint scheme applied to the P&LE cabooses built between October 1950 and January 1951, only a few black and white photos. The only reasonable guess is they wore white logos on either a brown or red car body. The second paint scheme applied sometime in the mid to late 1950's has the car painted red with the NYC emblem on a black background. Next the cars were painted in the Century green scheme sometime before 1964 Railroad Fair. Now the cars carried the NYC "Cigar Band" emblem and caboose 501 is known to have the large "Cigar Band" emblem while photos of caboose 504 show the car with the smaller "Cigar Band" emblem. After the 1968 PC merger, PC emblems were applied to the cabooses. In 1971 the P&LE reached an agreement with the Penn Central railroad regarding a dispute about loans and tax liabilities. After this agreement, the P&LE stopped applying the PC emblem to the cabooses and freight cars. In 1978, the P&LE started painting the cabooses in the yellow scheme.

    As you mentioned above, in 1960 the P&LE purchased 10 cabooses numbered 510 - 519 from the Morrision International Corporation. These cabooses featured the full length bays. The 510 - 519 cabooses were delivered in the red scheme with the NYC emblem that had the black background.

    Our former P&LEHS president (Frank) hosts a site on Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/groups/955781497921360/about/ It's possible he may have a few issues left of the "The Little Giant" Volume 6 Numbers 3 and 4 that covers the steel cabooses of the P&LE, if you are interested.

    I'm very happy to see Craig at Bluford Shops offering this caboose in the P&LE new image paint. I've already place my pre-order for both cabooses. Hopefully sales will be good enough to allow him to also offer this caboose and the standard length bay window caboose version in the P&LE Century Green and P&LE Red versions.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2018
  20. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    Did Jack Polaritz have anything to say about their colors? If anyone would know, it would be he.

    It was the white herald for the P&LE, while the NYCs had the black, -eh? I guess that means to buy any one with the small bay window, strip it, paint it and use one of my white heralds and P&LE numbers/reporting marks from one of the Microscale sheets. I have something with white heralds, but I forget if it is CDS dry transfers or Microscale.

    I wonder if that bright caboose red was applied in beginning in 1957 when the order came down from 220 Park Avenue to go to the Cigar Band scheme (although the GP-7s and RS-3s never had that, P&LE simply removed the stripes).

    P&LE waited until 1964 before going to Jade Green, -eh? That would be late, but, plausible.

    I was not aware that P&LE went outside NYCS for the second order.

    I have Robert Ray's kits for the NYCS wood caboose. Several of us lobbied him to include P&LE reporting marks, which he did on the decal sheet that came with them. Those all had the black heralds (although some P&LEs had no herald, just reporting marks and numbers). They were painted the Oxide Red/"brown", It was the same color as the hoppers.


    Thank you for the information. It is helpful.


    Now, when MT does its NYCS single window HW coach, how do we convince them to add the brass window sashes when they do the P&LE version?
    (Several of us have asked the MT guy on another forum to do a runner pack of these: One NYC, one P&LE, one B&A and one P&E.

    Do you know where to find a photograph of P&LE's baggage/mail cars?
     

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