Hi all, I am going to start planning a layout to be built at some point in the future. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Here is what I know: 1. Layout space is about 16 feet x 12 feet with a bathroom in one corner that is about 4.5 feet x 5 feet. 2. Will be n scale 3. Would like to model the New Haven RR between New haven and Springfield with a possible branch line(the line that went through my home town of southington, CT. I believe called the canal line) during the transition era. 4. I'd like to have 2, possibly 3 decks with a helix 5. Though I don't know much of anything about operations, I would like to design for it in mind. Questions I have so far: Anyone have some good references for the NH and it's track? N scale helix size? How doesn't one plan with operations in mind?
Steve it's never too early to start to plan for a layout. The layout I am building now I started to plan for about 12 years before starting the layout itself and did not know the space that I would be building in. Sounds like you at least know your space. With helix's generally the larger the radius you can do, the better as it will allow for a lower grade and / or better spacing between levels. There seem to be as many ways to build a helix as there are people building them. Lots of examples on the internet. I finished my first helix about a year ago. I am also building in N scale. My helix is 42 inches overall diameter with double track. The outer track is about 19 inch radius and my inner track is about 17.5 inch radius. I have calculated the outer track grade at 2.3 % and inner track grade at 2.1 %. I mostly like to run a pair the locos and so far no problem with them handling the grades with any size train.
Hello, A helix has to climb enough to clear your tallest wagon, plus track height and roadbed. For double stacks that is about 2.4" (I measured 46mm from rail top to hitting the overhead, my nmra gauge is 42mm). But transition era doesn't have a lot of double-stacks. For a classic circle / stacked helix in N scale, you're looking at about 18" radius, 2% grade, which makes a blob 3.5'x3.5' in your layout. Wider radius, gentler grade, bigger blob. Narrower radius, steeper grade or no double-stacks, smaller blob. Put straights on two sides, tighter radius and oval blob is longer and skinnier, but still a blob. On this forum we have ppuin, who worked out the math for a spiral helix, where the track curves out like a snail and so is cut from a single sheet of plywood - trains never overlap. I am planning a spiral on my layout. They are entertaining and different, but still become a large blob in the room. Also, if you need to climb more than 16" they aren't as easy For planning for operations, I started with "track planning for realistic operations" by John Armstrong. No idea if it is in print. Main things I think applicable are: * have passing / double-ended sidings longer than your trains * trains can meet at these sidings * operations trains back into industrial spurs (single ended sidings) to drop off and pick up wagons - so most turnouts will face one way around the layout * do not block the main line. Yards and the like always have room to get the local clear of the main before starting to work. * for my layout, I will have a main yard, where arriving (through) trains drop off and set out wagons - more likely an entire block of cars. The yard then assembles a local to trundle around the layout and switch the industry scenes, while the through train does a loop of the main and returns to staging. When going multiple decks, also think about where people will stand. It is a good idea to "stagger" towns down the aisle, and not have two places where operators congregate (two towns or industries) right atop each other, or directly across from each other. Lots to think about. And I have found the more you think about it, the more it becomes "sooner" than later
Hi Steve - For historical information about the NH, Google is your friend. Click here for a useful search. And good luck with your planning! - Jeff
Quick question for you guys. I am using Anyrail for the track plan. Do you guys use the pre-installed pieces to layout the track or use flex track? If using flex, how do you make your curves an even, smooth, curve?
Hey. Just want to point out that if you're are going to use flex and the flex will need to add up to more than one 3' piece to form a curve, put the 2-3 (no more than 3=9') sections together with rail joiners while they are straight (can do this on the floor) and solder the rail joiners making them very hot with iron or gun so solder flows into them. You'll wind up with one long straight track that when curved will form a very smooth curvature. Otherwise if you don't, curve you'll will wind up with kinked joints (actually angular) and won't look pro and, too, will add more drag or even cause derailments..Take your time to get it right and you appreciate it later when you're up and running....Beware too that if you have a curve on a grade (hill/helix) the curve adds allot of drag to the train. If you've designed a 2% uphill grade the curves will cause engine to see like a 3% or more, in turn causing stalling and slipping which will force you to run less cars than you wanted or a need to doublehead or assign a pusher in back (which can be allot of fun as long as you are in DCC and a headache if old analog..M.... Oh, btw, you could punch holes in bathroom and closet walls, add portals and have trains go through on a shelf !!
Thanks, not really there yet, just in the planning stages. To be honest don't even have the ""land grant" as everyone seems to say. I'm just trying to figure out anyrail and how to use the track planning pieces.
Ok, so the land grant in the basement was denied, so...my Dad also want's to be involved in this and has an area that is roughly 11.5 x 23.75 feet. He wants HO, I like N.(clearly that is an age/eye sight issue ) I kinda have the feeling that HO wont work well because we want a double deck layout with a 3rd lower deck staging and from what I have gathered in a little research of helix's is that an HO helix will take up a lot of space, Like 4'x4' or more? I've been trying to rough together a benchwork plan showing the helix so he can see how much space it will take up in HO compared to N but having trouble figuring out exactly what the radius of the helix needs to be for the next level to clear the previous. Any help there would be great. Thanks!
An N-scale helix at 2% will also be, 3.5-4' by 3.5-4'; to get smaller you either need an oval (long and skinny) or a steeper grade. If you want double stacks on a 1/4" roadbed (rail-top to rail-top of 2.4"), you need about 110" of track along the helix. C=2πr, so r=17.6". Add an inch for not dropping trains on the floor, and you're left with about 38" across: 3' 2" at 2%. Put a 12" straight on each side and you come down to r=13.7" (a little tight for 89' cars). Width of the oval is 29" and length is 41", with about an inch of guardband. If you come up to 3% grade, your diesels will pull about half as many cars, and your steamers half or less (depends on the loco). But you only need 70" of track for the 2.4" clearance per loop. 3% N-scale helix is about 11.2" radius, 2'1" across, and too tight for any modern equipment Inclines don't have to be integers, you can also look for 2.3% grade if that is a better compromise of space and pulling power.
Thanks for the reply. I think we are fine with 4x4 foot print. If modeling steam diesel transition, how many cars could a HO Loco pull up a helix with a 2.9% grade vs N scale loco?
The short answer is, I don't know. A number of factors come into play - radius vs car length; engine weight, car weight, metal or plastic wheels, engine quality (many 1980's manufactured models are weak pullers). I know pulling up a curve is harder than the same slope on a straight track; but I don't know if anyone has sat down and made up tables for this.
Steve: Providing a simple, straight-line answer to your questions about helix dimensions is fraught with peril, because: 1. the easily determined specific factors (grade, radius, and number of loops) are significantly influenced by 2. less easily determined--but still relatively objective--factors (such as, the specific loco(s)’ pulling power on a x% grade of y inches radius, or minimum loco turning radius), as well as, by 3. several factors that reflect your personal--subjective--preferences (train length [< 8 cars vs > 8]; single vs multiple engines; locos w/ 4-axle trucks or 6-axle trucks or 4,6,8, drivers; willingness to add a pusher to operations up the helix). You might find it very helpful to work out a list of “givens” and “druthers” for your layout. “Givens” are aspects/factors that are fixed, non-negotiable about your layout. Givens include: train space (originally thought to be 12x16, but now determined to be roughly11.5x23.5 because most walls can’t be moved); where windows, doors, outlets, electric panels, columns, stairs etc must be located are usually all considered givens. If it was just you determining givens, you might say N-scale was a given, but your dad may say HO is a given. (You two will have to work out something…perhaps dual gauge HOn30?) If you are set on having a specific era, RR(s), or locales on your layout, these elements might be considered givens; as might be 3 decks, staging, helix, minimum radius, types of motive power, DCC vs analog. However, if some of these elements are not quite as high of a priority (that is, if you would rather have them…if you’d rather…if you ‘druther’ have them, but you could survive without them), then they would be considered “druthers”. The specific priority assigned to any of your druthers may (?is likely to?) shift over time as your interests, modeling skills, resources, body of knowledge change, but you should try to establish at least some approximate priorities now, if for no other reason than to facilitate decision-making over the next few weeks. Any of the personal preferences listed in 3. above might be considered druthers…and if your dad has a brass 4-8-2 that he absolutely must run up and down the helix, then we’ll simply adjust the dimensions of the helix to accommodate this given. Are you and your dad about the same height? This will affect the elevations at which you set the 3 decks...which will affect how deeply you can see to the back of the middle and bottom shelves without bending over, stooping down, or sitting. You may want to limit how low you set the elevation of your bottom deck, because you will have to crawl under the lower deck benchwork to get into the helix. For what it’s worth… My first helix was between a 36 inch elevation shelf and a 58 inch elevation shelf...but the undersides of the helix supports were only 33 inches from the floor, so I had to crawl on my knees and then up into a 31 inch inside diameter cylinder when I wanted to work inside the helix. This was very uncomfortable, but do-able in my 30s. I built my current layout in 2003 and have 4 helixes with 42 inches between floor and underside of the helix supports, so now--at 67 y/o--I can duck walk into the helixes (with minimal grunting and groaning) or sit on a wheeled dentist's stool, bend over, and wheel myself into the helixes, which are bowl shaped, so I have MUCH more shoulder room to stand in and vertical access to every inch of every loop except for where the track to the first (bottom) loop passes under itself as it enters the bottom of the helix.) Do you and your dad have about the same reach? This, with height, will affect the depth you set for the 3 shelves. Depth of shelves affects how deeply you can see to the back of the middle and bottom shelves and how deeply you can reach all three shelves. How thick will your shelves be? A 2 inch thick top shelf that is 18 inches deep will let you see deeper into the middle shelf than a 4 inch thick top shelf that is 18 inches deep, but may not hide the light fixtures illuminating the middle shelf as well as the thicker shelf does. The choices you make for the elevations of the 3 decks, the depth of each deck, and their thickness, will affect how many inches you need to rise in the helix between decks...and determining the maximum grade that can be managed by all of your trains will set how far you have to run (that is, how many loops of x circumference are needed to move to the next level). How wide will your aisles be? If you stand in the middle of a 4 foot wide aisle, you can see farther into a middle or lower shelf than you can standing in a 30 inch wide aisle. If you sit in a 4 foot wide aisle, you can see farther into the middle shelf than the lower shelf, but depending on its elevation, you may not be able to see any of the upper deck. Also, if one operator is sitting, your aisles will need to be wide enough to accommodate a second operator passing the first AND their chair/stool (and you'll want to take into account that the seated operator might have stored items under the lower deck preventing his knees from fitting under the lowest deck). Because of the dramatic effects subtle variations in your preferences for the 3 decks and the aisles will have on the helix dimensions, I would strongly urge you to set up 3 shelves at various heights, depths, and thicknesses, and test for reach while standing and sitting, ease of working on the various levels and separations (Can you lay or repair track toward the back of the low or middle shelf or only on the front half of it? Can you comfortably see and reach to the back of the middle and lower shelves to install or upgrade track, a backdrop or scenery or structures? Is your staging (or middle deck) going to be separated far enough below your middle (or upper) deck that you can use a soldering gun or electric drill without banging your knuckles against the middle deck supports or lighting fixtures, wiring, or Tortoises? [Note: even if you do your original construction on a beautifully illuminated workbench with lots of access from all sides, you will still need adequate separation between decks to be able to make future repairs or upgrades.] Once you've determined the best elevations, depths, and thicknesses of your 3 shelves, it will be fairly easy to determine the specific basic dimensions of your helix. For ease of initial construction and for the ease of any subsequent maintenance and repair, and because the maximum grade can be kept well below 2% (provided you have the space for it), I recommend using a bowl-shaped helix with a minimum radius at the bottom of the helix and a gradually increasing radius with each loop such that each loop is outside of the one below it, instead of stacked directly over the lower loop, as in a cylindrical (stacked) helix with each loop radius equal to the loop radius below it. My bowl-shaped helixes rise from 48 or 53 inches elevation lower decks to 64 or 65 inch upper decks. Three helixes have 1.5 inch wide ramps and one has 1 inch wide ramps. The roughly 4’x5.5’ oval bowl-shaped helix has 5.5 loops; the 3 circular bowl-shaped helixes range from 15.5 or 15.75 inches minimum radius at the bottom to about 48, 54 and 56 inch diameters at the top, and have 6.5, 7, and 7 loops, respectively. All have maximum 2.0% grades. Pekin Helix Kellar Helix (oval)Before any track was laid close up view of the lower entrance to the Kellar Helix Bartonville Helix: 3 tracks about to enter the top of the B'ville Helix Photo Jan 05, 7 40 03 AM by ppuinn posted Jan 5, 2017 at 8:51 AM Inside the Bvl Helix Peoria Helix: 2 of the 9 tortoises for turnouts onto/off of the Peoria Helix Tangent Splices to/from the Peoria Helix
