16 January 2009 Destination: Charleston Union Station (CUS) I will need to break this ‘route into CUS’ information down into parts as it will be a lot of writing. It will difficult to talk about the trackage from the north area into the Charleston Union Station area without including some of the major side lines. I will begin with the Southern’s track at the Ashley Phosphate Road crossing. As I move into the City of Charleston, I will try and place the time period and what is still there compared to what was there. My time period spans a time period from 1942 until today as we still visit family members in the area there (these visits provide for some rail fan time). Southern Railway: From Ashley Phosphate road to the SY tower. At one time Southern had a spur line from here over to the Ashley River phosphate mines (hence the road name). The spur line was shown on an old South Carolina rail map, which had an enlarged section of the Charleston area. This was before my time of life; however I was able to fine a few places where the road bed had been. As late as June 1960 before I was re-assigned from Charleston AFB to Misawa AB, Japan, Ashley Phosphate road from the rail line to the river was still a dirt road – with very little traffic (compare that to today’s four and five lanes with major traffic). On a Saturday in late April, I took a group of Royal Ambassadors on a hike from the rail line over to the River’s edge over this road. At the river, we could see where the phosphate was mined and what looked like where a short rail yard was located. That was long hike for those boys and even with breaks, one boy rode on my shoulders for over two miles as we made our way back to the rail line. Next on the Southern’s east bound main was where the turnout for Charleston AFB was located. Originally the turnout was east of Midland Park Road, however when the runway was extended the turnout was relocated about half way between Midland Park Road and Ashley Phosphate Road. The turnout connected to the military rail line just inside the base fence line. There was no wye here and the line entered the main from the right (Southern had a wye just past Airport Road, that was used to for any required turns). I was reassigned to Charleston AFB in 1971 (after a second tour of duty in South East Asia). I made it a point to contact the people who operated the military rail operations and begin to work with them on some of my off days and other free time. About two years before my USAF retirement, I received my military locomotive engineer’s license. At last, I could officially operate a railway locomotive. One morning during my first assignment at Charleston AFB (444th F.I.S.), I was driving in to work on perimeter road just to outside of the rail line, at the end of the runway. As I moved around the second curve, I saw a bright light of a locomotive up ahead on rail line. I knew that the light was not on the air base’s 44 ton engine. As I drove closer, I saw that the light was on a Southern E-7. There were two E-7’s.coupled on to a troop passenger train. That was a time that I was at the right place at the right time (and with no camera). As I passed the train, I could see a lot of military personnel at the windows and in the vestibule doors. That was also one morning; I really wanted to be late for work. The train had arrived from the west (Summerville direction) and had backed into the base sometime during the night. I never did find out if the troops were off loaded on the base (and transported elsewhere) or just where the train was moved to when it left the base. It may have been moved to the U.S. Army's Port of Embarkation in North Charleston. I will stop for now and pick this up later (during my second assignment at CAFB). Larry @ SCRS
This is a very interesting discussion, the kind I really like to see on the board. I am in charge of picking the "Railfan Photos of the Week" this week and would love to see some of your historic photos to cover the discussion, posted on Railimages, of course. (Shameless Plug). :tb-biggrin:
Great thread!!! I am very happy to see that there are some folks who are interested in the ACL/SAL and especially in operations in South Carolina which is my home state as well. I don't have any info to share about Charleston itself but I am very interested in the history around Florence. Eddie
This all sounds to me like at least one article for "Lines South" which in case you're unaware is the journal of the ACL & SAL Historical Society. While the dialog is fascinating I think it would be even better as a reminiscent article on the area. It's exactly the kind of thing the magazine is always looking for. Jim
17 January 2009 Destination: Charleston Union Station (CUS) – part two (2). In this part, I will continue the Southern’s trackage route to the SY tower and the (then) double, four tracks crossing (the Lord willing in part 3). The SY tower, crossing, ACL yards, the ACL wye, the ACL’s spur into the Stark area and surrounding area is a story just by its self. Hopefully later, I will later pick up the Atlantic Coast Line’s route into Charleston from Moncks Corner to the SY tower, before continuing on to the CUS. Charleston Air Force Base, SC The rails into and on Charleston AFB have now long been removed, however I will take some time to tell about some of the events that took place on the ‘then active’ air base line. In 1971 when I was reassigned to Charleston AFB (after a second tour of duty in South East Asia – Ubon RTAFB, Thailand), I did contact the people who operated the military rail operations and did begin to work with them on some of my off days and other free time. It was during this second tour of duty at Charleston AFB until my retirement in 1975, I was able to ‘work on the railroad’, at the air base. I had become friends with the two civilian gentlemen who were the primary operators of the base railroad. It was these two men who trained me to become a military railroad locomotive engineer. I was licensed to operate locomotives up to 120 tons. The primary traffic over the line was coal cars, fuel tank cars, with occasional box and flat cars. Southern pushed the cars into the base and left them at the end of the runway transfer point. From there they would be taken to and spotted at their receiving points. We had one long run a round track, a few sidings and a long run out to the transfer point. There were two road crossings on the line. Our primary ‘customer’ was the air base power plant. We pushed a lot of cars to the plant as well onto a siding some distance from the plant. At the siding many of the coal cars were unloaded and the coal was stored on an asphalted surface, in huge piles for future use. At times, this coal was reloaded into a ‘loaned’ hopper car and moved to the power plant. On a Saturday, one time a year during the summer, the base would host a Kiwanis Kids Day. For this day, the NHRS, Charleston Chapter would put together a train of four to five cars (including their baggage car) and have them moved on Friday, by SCL and Southern to the Base. At the base, we would use our base locomotive for power to move the train. We would load the passengers at the road crossing, next to the base Civil Engineering building’s parking lot and give them a ride to the end of the runway, then return – off load and reload again. From about 0800 to well after 1700 (5 PM) we give rides to more that 3000 people, many who had never ridden a train. We would spot the NRHS’s renovated baggage (refreshment) car next to the base warehouse dock, where snacks and cold soft drinks could be purchased. It seems that each one of those Kiwanis Days was a hot day and they always sold out of the cold drinks. After the air base turnout, the Southern’s main line track continues on past the air base and shortly after passing Air Port Road crosses the top part of the Wye. This wye – still in place – is also Southern’s (NS) spur route to the old North Charleston area, the paper mill, to many of the Cooper River Industries and the U.S. Army’s Port of Embarkation. This line crosses the ACL (SCL /CSX) tracks just east of Remount Road. This is where the SCL and Southern put in a connection for SCL to access same areas as Southern. At least one north bound Amtrak train used this connector to access the old SAL line. With this connection, the SCL almost quit using their spur line (previously mentioned in another early post), that connected the main line just east of the passenger station. A number of years ago, I paced the NRHS / Southern’s excursion passenger train from Branchville to Charleston. Southern’s green and gold engine 4501 was on the front. The day was clear and a perfect day for pictures. I knew that just before Aviation Avenue (between the perimeter road and the track) was a good place to park and see the train as it passed. The area is clear cut and provides a long, clear view of the tracks. I drove there and waited for the train. Here, I was able to take some very good pictures, however the clearing was too short to take a picture of the entire train. When the train reached the wye, it was turned before backing it into the ‘pig’ track. I drove over to where the spur track crossed Rivers Avenue hoping to get a picture of the train as it crossed the highway. As long as the train was, it stopped short of the crossing. I had never seen a passenger train on this spur and it would have been a good picture to have. As a teen ager, my brother and I walked (one time) the Southern track from Airport Road to our home in Waylyn. The Southern then had a seldom used yard just west of the SY crossing (now their prime Charleston yard). It was here where the Southern’s double track begin as it entered Charleston. This ACL / Southern, double, four tracks crossing was another very good rail fan viewing spot. I often watched trains from ACL’s three directions and from Southern two directions here. In later years, one train I would have like to have seen here was the Auto Train. I was told that the train moved through the wye very fast. I need to go. Larry @ SCRS I
Larry, I knew the area around the Charleston airport and the AFB like the back of my hand. Living in Hanahan, we would ride our bikes over to the airport to watch planes throughout the 1970s. My dad died in 1970 when I was 4, but I can recall him taking us out to the perimeter road and parking between it and the SOU (now NS) tracks right in the spot where you described, just above Aviation Blvd. Of course, these days I don't let my kids venture 5 houses away on their bikes and TSA agents will swarm any vehicle stopping near the end of a runway. I also recall the tracks into the AFB as we were a military family and visited the base frequently. I don't recall the old alignment of the tracks, but I recall as you passed Midland Park Road, the tracks would cross the road and follow parallel all the way to the gate house and past the pad where there always seemed to be a C5 or a C141 parked. Thanks again for sharing all your memories, although I am now longing for a chili dog from the old base snack bar Jamie
Reading this thread makes me want to remind any reader - if you've found a piece or pieces of railroad, motive power, cars,, or anything of that nature, that appeals to you - photograph, photograph, photograph. It will be gone/changed before you know it. I finally found three boxes of slides (small ones at that) that I took in probably 1964-65, and two small books of photos taken at the same time. These slides/photos show some (nowhere near enough) of railroad activity in Charleston - heck, I've got more from North Carolina and Georgia than I do locally. Thankfully, the ones that have faded most are those from NC and GA. Believe I'd better get mounted and find some one who can turn those slides into photos before some of them disappear completely. On the west/south side of the ACL/SAL crossing at DuPont, was a borrow pit. While almost all of the soil west of the Ashley was that black, fertile loam at this location a large amount of what I call Georgia red clay was exposed. Apparently not only was this clay sort of impermeable, but apparently in the digging, the water table was reached. This pond, even in the dead heat of summer, was always cool. A perfect spot for my cousin, three of our neighborhood chums and I to have a "swimming hole." There was a 20-30 ft. fringe of trees, shrubs partially obscuring the ACL's Croghans branch, but on the south side, the SAL was in full glorious view toward the road to Oakland subdivision. This thread has brought back memories of luxuriating in that deliciously cool, clear water on a hot summer day and having either or both railroads put on a show for our (my) benefit. And, it was the only fresh water swimming for us within miles. The pond was almost totally isolated, with only the remnants of the old St. Andrews theatre near us to the west. There are other vignettes recalled, but I'll save those for a future posting.
I am thinking, I a thinking hard. I bet that is the same pond we rode our bikes to (from Rotherwood/Stono Park) and threw the old "cherry bombs" and M-80's, the powerful ones, before they were regulated. They made huge explosion when they went off. I seem to recall an old airplane hangar to your east, in the Airharbor area. I also remember an automobile/train wreck at the grade crossing where you lived. I think I heard that someone died. I did as you suggested an looked up some old pictures. My dad worked for a while at the Highway Department located on Wappoo Rd, close to Hwy 61. He would go to the Hwy. 61/ACL viaduct and take pictures there as well. I found one.
Falcon 468 You just triggered another memory. There were two ponds. When you said that you rode you bikes to a pond, I was confused for just a minute. To ride our bikes to this particular pond would have required a trip down Hw. 17, then Oakland Dr. Hwy. 17 didn't have any sidedwalks nor was it "biker friendly" back in the 50's. There was to the west of Air Harbor (at that time) a much shallower pond which was also one of our hangouts, but not deep enough for swimming. All of that area AFAIK is covered over now by Air Harbor and "Citadel whatever" subdivisions. Nope, I think it was in 1957-58(?) that they pulled in the 'dozers, etc. and converted our pond into an ...oxidation pond. Urbanization, ain't it grand. Larry earlier mentioned his trip to the packing shed at DuPont, Limehouse's. For most of the year it's seven car siding was almost deserted. There were occasional cars during the rest of the year and Seaboard did sometimes leave work cars/trains on it. But during the first harvest, which was mostly tomatos, that siding would be full of cars waiting to move truck produce, especially tomatos, north. On several occasions, one of the Baldwin switchers that normally worked Cooper yard would show up to pull loads and leave empties. Once, what was apparently a freshly (and I mean freshly) painted VO-1000 showed up. That engine in it's red and black scheme outshined any show room auto you ever saw. Seaboard's north bound local #66 (Savannah - Andrews, S.C.) normally worked that shed in the a.m., but since it only ran M-W-F, some of the night-time hot shots would pick up cars, for four weeks it was a 24 hour a day operation. For the longest time I wondered why Seaboard's trains always ran with GP's in the lead and FT's and F's trailing. Talking to a head end brakeman during a switching move, I posed that question and had an answer, "Cause when one of those old 'boosters" is leading, the engineer can't see diddly while switching." Needless to say, my 1/3rd mile of additional, fictional HO scale SAL is set in June/July. It's the year that's in question, '57 to '67.
I have just gotten off the phone with Mr. R. F. McNab, Jr. of Charleston. In this mornings edition of the "Post & Courier" he had a letter to the editor asking if anyone had information about the ACL's Croghans branch ever having a bridge into the peninsular city of Charleston. Gave him the small, fragmentary information I have and the name of a possibly better source. If you have or know of any information concerning an Ashley river bridge from Croghans to the city, please let me know and I will make arrangements to get the information to him. Thanks Dave
21 Jan 2009 Dave. Like you, I know the bridge was there in the distance past. however no other information on that bridge. Dave. You might inform him to go to the "Post & Courier" (old News and Courier and Charleston Evening Post) building and ask to see their micro film files. Those files are a very good source. I have used them (many years ago) and those files date way back. Larry @ SCRS
Gentlemen, You do not know how happy I am to have stumbled across this thread regarding ACL and SAL operations in the Charleston area. Your recollections of better days are invaluable to those of us trying to to get sense of the past based the few old maps and photographs that exist. Most people have no idea how extensive ACL, SAL, and Sou operations were in Charleston and the surrounding areas and quite frankly just how much has been lost to time and development. I grew up in Ravenel with the ACL mainline in my front yard. Although born in 61, I was fortunate that my grandfather (agent/operator/dispatcher) and father (freight dept) that worked for the ACL. I have a lot of good memories of ACL folks dropping by to visit with my grandfather and father, trains blowing for my grandfather, and visiting my dad at Bennett Yard in the late 60s. I'm also researching an article on the ACL produce operations on the Yonges Island branch so hopefully I can contribute to any discussions that line. I was hoping to include the Croghan Branch in the article since it was part of the vegetable territory but have not had much luck with photographs or operations. Your discussions are timely and appreciated. Larry - I believe we met in 2000 when I was working in Greenville. As I recall you were seeking info on the Union Station at the time. Curious to know if you were ever able to locate photos of the interior of the station? The CUS is another of many irons I have in the fire. In regard to the question about the war time bridge over the Ashley River - it was located in the approximate location of the newer (downstream) Ashley River Bridge. Somewhere I have a railroad map or correspondence with a deed reference indicating the highway department purchased the land from the ACL. The temporary tracks reportedly ran down the location of present day Spring Street to connect with the SCRR and NERR. The connection track would have had to have left the C&S mainline in the general location of present day Folly Road. The C&S shops and wye were located to the east of Folly Road and were abandoned soon after the merger of the ACL and the Plant System. I have no information on a St. Andrews Station. I'll close with a question - does anyone remember the Southern Connection interlocking tower located near the former Standard Oil terminal on Meeting Street? Curious what the building looked like or if by some miracle anyone knows if a photograph exists. All that I have been able to determine is that the tower dimensions do not appear to match any known standard ACL designs. Thanks. Buddy Hill
22 January 2009 Good evening Buddy. Yes. It was me who you met in Greenville, SC. I think the tower you are referring to was the Magnolia Tower. I do not have any pictures - except in my mind. I plan to cover this area as I move (write) my way into in the CUS from the SY tower and crossing area. Good to have you 'on board'. I know you can really contribute a lot to this ACL / SAL post. I will be including Southern in with my posts as ACL and Southern were prime rails between Meeting and King streets as they entered Charleston. Just picture four main lines for traffic, two mains for each railroad as trains move in and out of the city via the neck. Larry @ SCRS
Welcome Buddy Hill. Thanks for the info on the ACL's downtown bridge. I'll pass the info on to Mr. McNab as soon as I can. I wish I could tell you that I photographed every square foot of the Croghan's branch, but I can't. Nor, even though I knew it was threatened, the SAL main. Not too smart! Even tho' on our trips to visit St. Lawrence Cemetery and subsequent trips to visit relatives living further north, I don't recall ever seeing a tower by the oil terminal. That would probably have been late 40's/early 50's. And, I was very aware of railroads and related items at that age. I do remember my first sight of Southern diesel power in about 1949 when a really shiny, looked freshly waxed RS-? pulled a string of cars across Meeting St. extension while we were waiting for the bus. And, on the Croghans branch you would never have guessed at "unit" hopper trains, at least one of 63 cars being pushed down that, 65 lb. rail by two GP-7's and an FP-7. The 63 car train I witnessed myself and my dad said that there had been others. This during construction of the "new" Cooper River bridge in '64-'65. For the modellers amongst us, you may be interested to know that Athearn has announced 3-bay wood chip hoppers, road names ACL, (old) NS, and SOU. Apparently they will be done as single cars and two different 4-packs, at least for ACL and SOU. Also, 50 ft. boxcars in two different numbers for SAL and SOU. And, these will be regular chip hoppers, not the steroid fed 60+ footers.
Larry/Dave - Thank you for the welcome. The "tower" in question is definitely not the Magnolia tower. Southern Connection (Hibernia Park in Sou ETTs) was located adjacent to the ACL mainline and north of the point where the northern leg of the wye servicing the Etiwan Fertilizer Plant/Std. Oil/etc. rejoins the line (modern reference - the CSX spur that crosses Meeting St to access the Kinder Morgan coal terminal). Southern Connection shows up in 1939 and 1954 aerial photos. It is also shown in ACL valuation maps. All I can tell at this point is that it does not appear to be one of the std tower designs used by the ACL. As far as I can tell it may have been a single-story shanty or a box car on cross ties - just trying to confirm its design. Hard to believe that there were 10 different towers in the Charleston area through the years. BH
In connection with Buddy's comments on the Meggetts branch, does any one have info on the potato dock at Johns Island. I understand that there were similiar docks (dock) at Meggetts to provide service to Sea Island farmers for access to rail service. I know from my own visits to Yonge's Island in the 1950's that these branches were basically abandoned. I do not believe that anyone has ever explored the extent of truck farming and some of the fortunes made from this actitivity up until the 1950's. I have based my model railroad on this premise and though I know it was really a thing of the past by the late 50's, still I've carved out a period from 1957 - 1967 where such was still viable. I do not think that very many people have any idea of how divorced coastal Carolina between Charleston and the Savannah River was from the rest of the country as late as the 1960's. This, due to the intense Northern interest during Reconstruction and their subsequent total neglect for the next hundred plus years led to a particular attitude that was uniquely Southern. The rails of the ACL and later SAL, ended some large part of this isolation, but not totally. I, as I believe my predecessors, still considered the "Boll Weevil" as a more reliable means of transportation than even the SCE&G buses - which defintitely ran on time and were cheaper, however, their service at that time was somewhat limited to the people who lived west of DuPont Road. It was this ante-bellum territory through which both ACL and SAL staged what was probably just as intense a rail competition as could be found in the country, at least for freight.
And in some respects it still is to this day. While Cajun cuisine has introduced many people to the Cajun/Creole culture prevalent in southern Louisiana, hardly anyone outside of SC is aware of the Gullah/Geechee culture that is still going strong to this day, although I am sure things were quite different half a century ago. My roommate for the summers during my last two years at USC (1989-90) grew up in a shrimping family somewhere below Johns Island and was Geechee through and through; even I was only vaguely aware of this culture beffore then and I spent the first 25 years of my life as a resident of Berkeley County. Jamie
I'm at work at the moment and do not have access to my notes. The Johns Island wharf was constructed in the early 1950s after the Yonges Island wharf/depot burned down in Dec 1950. Stevens, a local shipper, leased wharf space and operated a potato washer - shipped produce from surrounding sea islands. The ACL was reluctant to rebuild the wharf due to falling traffic on the Yonges Island branch. A compromised was reached and a wharf was constructed on the Stono River and was accessed via a short spur off of the Croghan branch near the Johns Island depot. Truck farming was BIG money in the vegetable territories. The Charleston Post & Courier ran a feature article in a 1914? edition that summarized the history of the produce operations in the area. As I recall it discussed the personalities, money, produce types, etc. There was also a Handbook of SC that was produced in the teens. One of the chapters discussed truck farming operations. As I recall from the articles, truck farming generated approximately 10 million dollars in 1916. Plug that into an online inflation counter and you get 180+ million dollars. I doubt that is a realistic number but it does hint at the money being generated in the area. Buddy Hill
Buddy, As you are aware, I am trying to piece together my grandfathers ACL heritage. I know he worked many years with the ACL and I know that in his last years, he was the trainmaster/conductor on the train that ran from Albermarle Point to Jericho, SC. I even recall that there was a specific industry that they served at Jericho. I believe this to be the Croughan Route; however, I see Yonges Island now being discussed. I assume that this was a branch of the Croughan Rt. I thought that I would check with you for clarification. Man, from age six through 17, the years that I had with my grandfather while he was on this rail, I sure wish I had kept some kind of records such that I could be more of a participant on this discussion. I saw him at church every Sunday, we just never talked about this.
Buddey - Thanks for the info on the potato docks. I thought that operation looked too new to date back before the Limehouse bridge. And, since I just read that the 1913 dollar was worth .04 cents in 2005, the impact may well have been closer to a quarter-billion dollars today. The Low country is in fact, still somewhat divorced from the rest of the country even now. However, with the continuing influx of people who have to live within shouting distance of semi-warm salt water, I don't hold out much hope for the Gullah-Geechee culture. On the other hand, the Gullahs are putting up some pretty stiff resistance to a lot of the urbanization. For the Geechees, I know 3 personally, when they go ...? Falcon - Since I don't have a local TT from the ACL years, it's been very hard for me to figure out how the Croghan branch fit into the overall scheme of things. However from TT #2 from the SCL, dd. 12.11.70, it appears that local freight 592 from Savannah to Bennett's yard was allowed two hours to travel the 16 miles between Ravenel to Bennett's. (i.e. Ravenel at 9 am, arrive Bennett's 11 am). This was in the general time slot that Croghan's was worked. Jericho was on the main line in the Jacksonboro area as I recall. I do seem to recall a fertilizer plant on that stretch of ACL main. Perhaps Buddy could enlighten both of us.
