Yo Ho, I agree with you. I just brought out all the 1st generation B units non-powered, to run with my Mu'ed Sharks. Wow they look great, FAB, F7B, GP9. If my other B's, FAB and CLiner B were unpowerd i would have lashed them up also! Pics to eventually follow. Commentary welcomed.
Outside of my stumbling into the N group this is my first post here. I'm surprised about the topic as I can't recall any problems with the dummies I used to have. Perhaps it was the weight I usually added or I was lucky with my wheelsets. I based all of my kitbashes on Athearn chassis, powered or not, back then. As to allowing my grandsons to play with my dummies, I'll have to consider that. I may have to buy a couple just for that purpose and keep them from using my 'good' ones. I certainly used mine to check new trackwork and probably will on the new layout.
I had the problem early on. Then I began to weight (not necessarily to NMRA standards) the non-powered units and received better results. Note some Athearn non powered units had only plastic wheels and I dont believe the can be replaced. Another problem causing derailments is coupler malfunctions. Couplers on non-powered units are capped not screwed into place. Many caps dont fit well and the couplers will have left & right movement problems. They will also have height problems and there is no where to place to add spacers on the wheel sets. Thus the reason most guys dont buy them. I dont have these in my fleet. I have B units which are basically de-powered (no gears, no motors). These work well and are up to NMRA standards properly weighted, couplers gauged for height, metal wheels etc. Im sure some of the senior guys can provide historic commentary on the subject.
I just bought a dummy for 3 bucks out in East Troy and I haven't run it yet. It does have the plastic wheels, and the slightly lighter amount of weight. I pushed it around the track, and it seemed to work fine. Now to try it with the powered units...:tb-biggrin:
An inherent flaw...from the get go. There was an inherent flaw built into the Athearn trucks from the get go. More, see my comments below. YoHo, I can appreciate your point of view and possible resolutions to the problems. I fought with these things for years and did all the above, to no avail. With one exception powering them up, this seemed to solve the problem...for the most part. There was an inherent flaw built into the truck design, that baffled most of us early HO model rail types, for years. When the trucks are powered up they move along fine with minimal derailing. Oh, they will derail...no fault of the track. If a trailing unit ran faster then the lead unit it would shove the lead unit resulting in a derailment, the trucks would lift up and over the rail. In the same lash up they would derail in a reverse move. Not a lot of fun. The focus of your attention needs to be on the construction of the chassis and the truck. The dummy trucks (non-powered) they are way to loose. Until you find a way to change this you won't solve the problem. It turned out to be a case of the wobblies. baffled: Here's an example of my experience and a brief summary at the end. I had an HO, Athearn, Santa Fe passenger train made up of the shorties. I purchased two Athearn, powered, Super Geared, F7 A units. I wanted a host of B units (cabless) to fit in between the two. I mowed my neighbors lawns and polished a dozen cars and walked three miles in the snow and sleet to school each way before I could get to the hobby shop (actually a bicycle shop). OK, you can strike out the snow and sleet thing (I got carried away) Only once did I see snow in Hollister, Ca. Now back to the subject at hand. I went out with my earnings and purchased two dummy (non-powered and cabless) Athearn F7 B units. I was excited...like a new puppy...with a bone. I put those DUMMIES into the consist, lashing them up with the super geared F7 A units, right smack dap in the middle. I powered up the train and those crazy dummy units made like a jack knifed truck on a cold winter morning with icy roads. Gosh, what the...well? I toyed, worked, played, analyzed, measured, weighted, re-gauged the wheels sets, put in new wheel sets, checked my track and added more weight. Darn things were already heavy enough. I then rearranged the consist putting the A units up front with the B's following. Now they string lined, or derailed in a reverse move. Frustrated as...well...you know. I went out and mowed more lawns (it was time again and they needed it). Waxed my dad's car and the mortuary's two limo's. Took the earnings and purchased two (2) each POWERED, Athearn F7 B Units. The Super Geared versions so they would quote "All run together" unquote. Oh, they ran together. My transformer an older wire wound rehostat with two amps power, set there and hummed (a new tune) as it did it's best to power them four units up. They creeped along nicely but I couldn't get any speed up for the hill. It was clear I wouldn't be breaking any world speed records at this rate. I eventually sold the dummy units off to some poor sucker. That came back to bite me in the butt. Another story for another time and thread. Finally, Athearn came out with a geared locomotive that pretty much became the standard. I purchased an ABBA set all powered and my Super Chief, started breaking speed records. Nice to have something that stayed on the track. Do you get my drift here? When it comes to Athearn's dummy B units, nothing has changed. Have you ever wondered why they called them dummies? I'm not sure if that's in reference to who is buying them or the dummy that made them? Anyway, they had the same inherent flaw and never did work any better then the originals. Pretty much extending this problem to the newbies of today and causing the same frustrations. The point is you can go through the same frustrations or give it a rest. Since, I can't fix the problem and I don't know of anyone who has. And, until this subject was broached here... I chose to give it a rest. Now don't ask me why? Dummy units seem to have an inherent flaw built into them despite the scale and manufacturer. The problem appears to be universal. So approach with caution, yellow over red. In closing, I did set a standard: I don't need pretty un-powered, dummy units that just sit around waiting to be moved. Shoot, if it ain't powered it ain't good enough... to run on my railroad. Does that help?
Rick, I appreciate your experience in this, but it really just doesn't fit in with mine. I've taken them apart and looked at the guts and looked at how they are designed and, at least for the entirty of the run from the mid 1980s until now, I can say with confidence that there is absolutely no design difference in the trucks between powered and dummy. They have the same freedom of movement, they mount the same way, the parts can be freely swapped. I believe this was not always the case, but in recent times, it is. A dummy BB athearn is a powered unit with the motor and gears removed and plastic wheels inserted. That is 100% of the difference. Now I will say this, I've had some trouble with the F7B due to the ladder detail on one side obstructing freedom of movement for the truck, but that's a completely seperate issue and occurs in powered units as well. The only fix I've ever done is to gauge the wheels which you should do with every car and engine and swap to metal which is just a policy for everything I put on my rails.
YoHo, With the un-powered B units, it's that freedom of movement that's at the root of the problem. Once you remove the gears the freedom increases. You said, "They have the same freedom of movement" and this is where you and I would differ. I found that the trucks when geared up or powered, don't have the same freedom when compared to the non-geared trucks Thus they wobble and shift. So, badly that when you put pressure on them either in a forward or reverse move, they ride up and out of the rails...derailing. Like you I did the gauging thing. I found that some of the wheel sets needed it but that didn't solve the problem. Athearn hasn't changed the basic chassis...much, over the years. From the first F7's with the hifi or belt drive chassis, to the super geared chassis and the finale delivery, didn't vary much in how they installed the dummy trucks. As you indicated a stripped down version of the powered truck. Feel free to differ with me...that's not a problem. I may have missed something, the first frustrating time around, this obnoxious behavior. The best of luck. Edited add on: YoHo, do you remember the early discussions in the early Model Rail Wig Wags (magazines). They talked about tightening down one truck so it doesn't wobble that much and the other was to remain loose. If you and I could tighten up one of the trucks I think we could solve the problem. Ummm, you might not remember because there is a significant age difference between us. A shot in the dark...
Yeah not bad. I re-used a weight from a scrap dismantled diesel that some one gave me. I used playdough in the fuel tank and centered the weight there. On the downside the playdough drys and chips out causing the weight to sometimes be dislodged. I never checked the NMRA recommended weighting so it may be a tad heavy. Im currently running dummies (non-powered) PRR GP7 5855, PRR F7B 4159 (both Athearn) PRR FA2 9620B (Proto2000) PRR F3B 9501B (Stewart) on my Pittsburgh Terminal District Layout. I have a Walthers FA1 9501B & Proto 1000 C-Liner 9450B but both are powered. Im considering de-powering various Athern AC units to run as dummies since the cost of converting to DCC is considerable. I would be interested in your thoughts on the subject.
I actually have heard this advice though not for Athearns. I've also heard the opposite for some models. Just to follow up on the rest, I really just haven't had this experience. In bookmarkm's thread, you identified as an Athearn F7, an ID I agree with, but it is a very old Athearn. They haven't made anything that looks like that in ages. Mine from the late 1980s has different truck construction, different truck sideframes, different frame shape and material. In fact the only thing that's the same is the shell. This is a link to a "modern" Athearn powered truck http://www.brasseurelectrictrains.com/service/images/ath42010-450.jpg Athearn 4 axle truck image by doctorwayne on Photobucket It's worth pointing out that Lifelike uses the exact same design for proto2000 http://www.nmra.org.au/Hints/P2K/DSC12305.jpg As you can see, this truck design is 100% different from the earlier picture.
Well, I'd argue that 20 years of running Athearn dummies without a problem I couldn't pin on plastic wheel sets is sufficient. Especially given the product is no longer for sale. Also sorry I posted to see if the picture worked and then went back and added.
Guy's I experienced the same with the Athearns. I have two Athearns see my previous post. Im convinced the problem is with the "couplers". The stupid coupler cap system's cap sometimes does not always cover the coupler mounting properly. So when there is any L-R movement such as curves or switches "problem". Now, I tested my dummies on 3-3' sections of straight track back and forth for XXX trips? The dumb dummys never; I mean never; de-railed. So, I played with the Kaydee's couplers filing the coupler mounting audnausium to allow for L-R coupler swing making them work better on curves & switches. Now my Stewart & Proto 2000 look great and run better. The coupler box is already positioned. Drop in the coupler of choice and viola! NO PROBLEM. PS: I now use Bachmann Couplers (but I will not replace the Kaydee's on the Athearns until I have to because of the Dumby Coupler caps.
Same here. I have an Athearn F7A(powered) B(dummy) set and only the B derails in the sharper curves because of the ladders. The F7A stays on the track. I looked inside both and they are virtually identical, save for the power train.
I'm not aware of any problems with clearance with the plastic clip couple pockets, but I would advice switching to full on KD #5s rather than mess with them. They're prone to springing off.
I have several Athearn dummies, GP 9s GP 38-2s and have never had a problem. I used the steel wheels, so I could pick up power from the rails to run lights and flashers, and just leave them sitting in a line on a siding, flashing all the time, just like the real ones. I would put a sound unit in a dummy, and run it behind a powered unit, and they really look cool, and sound great. Why strain your transformers and get them all hot and bothered, when a single powered Athearn will pull 25 or 30 cars. I tend to disagree with people who buy hundreds of powered locos. I would rather have a 3 to 1 ratio of power to dummies. Saves heat on the transformer, and offers an inexpensive fleet.
It really depends on what you're modelling and thus the size of your fleet. If you're modelling a short line scenario with very few engines, then might as well get them all powered to maximize flexibility, but if your modelling say SP mainline action from 1975-1990, then dummies are the only way you're going to be able to afford to make the consist look real without breaking the bank and the transformer. As you said, those Athearns will pull a moose. It's different in the N-scale world where you're dealing with smaller motors, but heck, the flat can motor in an Athearn has more mass then any N-scale 4 axle and add on the Flywheels and it's bigger than almost any N-scale engine. And the difference in car weights doesn't corrispond. These engines can pull like crazy so you don't NEED to have as many powered units.
One thing I will say is that prior to the advent of DCC and speed matching, putting dummies in between powered units that weren't very well matched was going to be a problem, but that sort of goes without saying and isn't the fault of the dummy.
