I was hoping to get your attention. First off a little background on myself. I'm a operating kind of guy. As a former brakeman, dispatcher office operator, Tower Operator I like operation. Not really interested in industrial switching. Necessities are; 1. Double track, 2. Long sidings, 3. Plenty of interlockings, 4. A hump yard, 5. A passenger station, 6. A engine house and facilities, 7. Two levels, 8. Around the wall with accessibility without openings in the layout. Most of this has been thought of in the attached drawing (left and right side since it is a wide image and the restriction of photo size for attachments. The yet to be built room will be 10x23' in a un-finished basement with a stone foundation. One wall will be the foundation (open, no layout except for a short portion). The built walls (all wood, no cheap drywall) will have the layout in a 'self' like design. The basement get very humid anytime it rains, especially in the spring (varies from as low as 40% to close to 100%). I will have a dehumidifier for that enclosed room. I'm hoping by somewhat isolating the room on three sides and partially enclosing the ceiling I will have a handle on humidity. There is no issue in the winter other than temperature (varies from 40-45 degrees to close to 80 degrees). Other than the humidity, am I going to have a issue with 'heat kinks' and/or pull aparts?? Those figures are extremes. Temp. ranges from close to upper 40's to upper 70's. High humidity is usually short lived, except under long rainy periods (mostly in the spring). I talked to a modeler locally in HO scale and he had problems with pull-aparts & heat kinks. But, that was in HO. Is N more or less prone to this? My first (real) layout was a 5x7' modified 'L' shaped table in a bedroom. For a 1st (real) layout, my major resign fault was excessive grades, especially for the hump. Damn MicroTrains trucks allowed the cars to literally crash into the bumpers at the ends of the tracks sometimes on to the floor. One excessively sharp curve at the top of the grade caused straight-lining with longer trains due to the grades. I have close to 250 freight & passenger cars all with MT trucks & couplers. My power rooster is 23 freight & passenger (Atlas & Life Like), all diesel. No DCC. The left drawing has a elevated portion that will include a passenger station with siding off either main. No, there is no 'coach yard' as I don't seem to have room for it without actually seeing it in 3d (after the table frame is built and can visualize the look as it is planned now). The right side is the hump & receiving yard with engine facilities. I changed the location of the facilities a couple of times and as it stands it needs to be change again since I don't like tracks on either side of the receiving yard 'lead'. The 'squares' on the drawing at 12". Table depth is limited to three feet, but I'm concerned about access along the long wall so I plan hinged cutouts that drop down on that wall and the far right angled corner. I don't want to reduce the depth to 30" since it will 'cram' all of the too close together. It's alot as it is. Ok, fire away.
My only issue would be the minimum radius of 13". While virtually all equipment will run on it, it won't look good (especially the passenger rolling stock). Even 16R is pushing it (NTRAK specifies a minimum of 18R for the branch line, although they do permit 12R on the mountain line). So long as you can live with it, it's OK, but my personal preference would be limit the radius on visible trackage to 18". FWIW
Unless you hide the tight radius in a tunnel like my dad did on his layout. He has 11.5" radius on each end of his layout and they are hidden in the tunnels. Works quite well actually. Although sometimes we have to watch some of the older 6 axle units. Some wont run on that tight of a curve.
I would be concerned about the humidity changes, more than the temperature, particularly once you start putting scenery on. Really depends more on absolute humidity (total water content) vs relative; you don't want the scenery absorbing moisture. I have my unitrack layout in an outside shed/room. While insulated, it is neither heated nor A/Ced (well, have a portable heater I use in winter when working on the layout). Haven't had problems with temperatures causing problems, but do have to clean the tracks more frequently in winter (probably due to condensation on the metal surface)
I would broaden the radius of the turn on the right side. Other than that it would be my choice if I wanted that type of layout. If you are into operations you might consider goint around the wall in two levels as that will give you more layout in the same space. As to the humidity - you should be concerned about that and use a dehumidifier as I do. My layout is in a basement of a 100+ years old house and the isolation that was there is long gone, so water creeps up from outside and gets into the room air. Before using the dehumidifier I had a constant 80% relative humidity, now it is down to 55 - 60%. A dehumidifier will give you slightly higher temperatures in winter, but you'll have to keep it from freezing. Since it works by cooling the air passing through it it will freeze up above the freezing temperature of water (32 F?), especially when the temparature rises sharply. (I have no explanation for that, but that is the way it was here) If the humidity is from the outside air it might be enough to have a vent. hth Michael
As stated, a dehumidifier was on my list. I now plan on enclosing the lower half of the outer wall (top of drawing). There are two windows there (one opens) that I don't want to enclose or bother framing around since they are above ground anyway. Right now humidity is around 80%
It occured to me that I didn't answer your primary question: Nothing is wrong with your layout! Speaking of humidity: If it's from the outside air it's normal and a dehumidifier will suit you well (although cost you on a permanent basis. Don't use the ones that work without electricity by using a granules.) If humidity comes from the floor or through the walls maybe it would be better to just apply isolation if possible. (Isn't feasible on the floor since it would require to rip it out first). have fun Michael
This is basically the problem and what I intend to do. Not sure what you are talking about. Are these moisture absorbing pellets?
Yes, exactly. I see those gadgets once in a while. They are filled with moisture absorbing pellets. They are cheap, but not very efficient. The pellets have to be replaced once in a while. However, don't use them. hth Michael
Well, just be certain that should you decide to hide any of those tighter radius curves, you have a way to very easily access. In case of... Boxcab E50
Well designed layout / track plan!:thumbs_up::thumbs_up: I hope you have access to both sides of the layout along the four foot depth section. That will make for an almost impossible reach if something derails on the back side not to mention constructing scenery. For the most part I would consider making the layout 4 foot deep with access on all sides. That would solve the tight radius issue in the turn arounds and provide easy reach for derailments and the construction of scenery. I built a tool room / machine shop (R13 value insulated walls and ceiling) in my detached sheet metal building / garage and live in a valley on rural property with two creeks bordering it. Outside humidity at night is 95+ percent. I installed an in wall air conditioner and electric heater along with a dehumidifier. My humidity remains within 5% of the setting of 40% and the temperature never varies more than three degrees from the 70 degree setting. If I can do it, so can you! Jerry
The layout is three feet deep and I do plan on some access on the wall side (at the bottom) and right hand corner. A/C surely isn't needed in a basement and there is a hot air furnace duct right above I could tap into, but probably won't. I was thinking about a gas space heater, but I will have to see how things are next winter. Electric heat is too expensive, period. $.18 kwh (all charges included) makes it prohibited.
You may only need a couple of ceiling fans to circulate the air, that is the up side to a basement. It may depend on the amount of heat coming off of your dehumidifier, electronics, lighting and bodies present. I always like to have a plan B worked out prior to construction with the hooks built in. I'm excited to see your layout progress. Keep us posted. Jerry
We just had a 'monsoon' that came out of nowhere which is unusual for this area. My 'problem' area just got worse. It's a small area at the base of the wall on the back of the foundation, about three feet worth. I did apply hydraulic cement which so far up to now worked, but with the cloudburst, it didn't. I will go back and add more extending it up the wall a few inches and along this area. I know I will need more than just a couple of ceiling fans. Heat is no real problem except in the winter for the lack of. Attached are pics of the proposed room. 1. The lumber rack will be moved, 2. The columns will be the wall at the bottom of the drawing, 3. Even after this monsoon, that middle pic was no worse, 4. But, in the bottom left corner of the 3rd pic, is where the problem is, 5. The 'blue' foundation treatment was not my doing or idea. I inherited it. The previous owner stupidly covered up the original drain channel that went around the perimeter of the floor, so I did a make sfift 'curb' (whatever you want to call it) to channel the water to the floor drain behind where I took theses pics.
Question; Would using plastic or a Tyvek equivalent on the foundation side of the wall help keep moisture away from the wood itself?
Me not beeing an archtiect, but having an old house here in Europe where we have exactly this problem: If moisture is pressed in from the surrounding ground you really have a problem. It is too late to drain the water inside as by then it already has done damage to the walls by decomposing the mortar between the stones. In the long term it will ruin the house. Sorry to have to tell you that but you should consider digging down to the edge of the wall and isolate it on the outside and lay some drainage tube there, then fill this up with rounded gravel. That's what we would do over here, I don't know about your techniques in the US. A dehumidifier will not really help in this situation as it will just suck the water endlessly out from the walls. If I were you I would consult a contractor specialized on isolating houses. hth Michael
You are correct and I already have thought about this, but really didn't want to go through the trouble and expense. I will take another look at this. Mind you, I'm not talking about a stream of water. It doesn't pour in except after a monsoon which we just had (rare).
It only gets your attention after a monsoon rain.... It drips continuously. I'm sorry for the bad news I gave you, but I'm afraid it would have been spoiling your fun. keep on going! Michael
