This is so ridiculous a suggestion from DHS--and so disheartening--that I'm at a loss for words. I can't remember the German designation for the bureau that was on top of the Gestapo, SA, SD, and other security agencies, but it probably translated to DHS!
Pete- Are you thinking of the RSHA? Another was the Kempeitei in Japan. There have been too many such examples throughout world history. Every one was a disaster for their society. Now, we have our own building up momentum. Boxcab E50
A disgusting event comes to mind. The disclosure of Anne Frank and her family was by an employee of a Dutch jewelry store owner who had kept his store open and kept this man employed for four years during the war. This store owner also had risked his family's life for hiding the Frank family more than three years. This is not an extreme example, but what appears to be normal behavior for people who are easily led by ego-centric paranoid administrations. The Nazi party was one of these adminstrations. There have been many others throughout history, still are, and will be for years to come.
I just read this whole post and find the whole spy and turn in suspicious behavior in par for the course. I still take my railroad piictures, what are they really gonna do to me if I did take pictures, ask me why and what for? Like they first thread said it's still legal and it's harrasment to just stop me and ask a ton of questions, I would just tell them to mind thier own buisness. Basiclly this is how I look at this, I don't care if they want to waste money checking my bank accounts, monitoring my phone calls, my internet activity or what ever, I have nothing to hide and I still have the freedom to do what ever I want so long as it's legal including railfaning. Today I posted new railfan photos and 6 of them were tank cars. I will continue to rail fan and will not allow myself to be in fear of taking a lousy picture of a train. My pictures are for pure interest of rail fanning and modeling. Note: It seems I made this reply to harsh and diverse for this board probably raising some eye brows, so in the name of policy on politics I edited out much of my thoughts on this subject
Reading through the whole thing, I agree with the consensus opinion. Would also bring up a couple of points...First, critical infrastructure. What does that mean? Would the average Joe on the street know it if he saw it? For that matter, would the average patrolman? And I don't say this disparagingly - I'm a security guard for the Air Force, soon to be AF Police if all goes well. Outside of what I've had defined as critical assets to me, I wouldn't have a clue. This bridge or that road? The oil refinery over there? Second, seems suspicious? That kind of statement is so open-ended that it could include, probably, about everyone at some point or another. And if I remember history and a class I took a long time ago, terrorists aren't really all that interested in the actual damage they cause but in the publicity it gains them. Think the Sbarro in Israel, Lord Mountbatten or any of various mosques in Iraq.
AND the mainstream media! This situation needs lots of ink! Whether the big papers or magazines print it is the question,however if the smaller venues pick it up, the bigger ones will sense a developing story. Almost every scandal expose has begun that way, a minor source revealed it and then the big guys picked it up like it was their own idea. Example, the "Dan Rather" thing, that was a small "blog" that sprung the story. Look what happened! Charlie
First, I think this needs to be blown wide open with a major story and how this may lead us down the wrong path (totalitarianism, Nazilike, police state, etc.) and is harassment and infringement on our rights to persue a legal hobby. 2nd, I think after awhile even the cops answering enough lame encounters will even get tired of responding to any calls of "omg, there is someone taking pictures of stuff". I suggest you know your rights, the laws, and follow them. When approached be polite and cooperative and knowledgable about your activity and the legal stipulations. Don't let the authorities intimidate you with false information. If they take it too far there are rules and laws that apply. Use them. Have them call their supervisor if needed, etc. I railfan without any fear of the cops. I've been approached on more than one occasion and it has always ended with, "have a good day, be careful" from them to me. No problems. I will continue to enjoy my hobby as I see fit. I am prepared to fight any issues that arise however. Railfans are not alone in this fight either. Photographers from every other possible realm are dealing with this too and I see people taking pics of "wierd stuff" every day. If I'm not breaking any laws, authorities have no recourse but to leave me be.
I think most serious media would take Napolitano's remark as an off-the-cuff comment that really didn't amount to a hill of beans. And I think that Napolitano, if pressed, would simply state that she misspoke. I've been a PR man all my career, and inflaming stories is a very iffy proposition. I can't see this catching on with the mainstream press--many of whom wouldn't know critical infrastructure if they were driving on it or submitting stories through it via satellites. It's still maddening to me, and might make me snap at the next person who inquires about my photo activities. The next person who nudges me while I'm taking pictures of the Martha's Vineyard ferry being unloaded under a grogeous dawn sky and mutters, "You really shouldn't be doing that" is going to get a nudge back, and a mutter, "You really want to talk about that?" I really need to write a letter to DHS and Napolitano.
If you do, keep us posted. I write to my Senators and Congressman when there is a issue dear to me. Fortunately both my Congressman and Senators are rail-friendly and rail labor friendly. With a rail friendly government all the way up to the White House, I feel that railroads in this country are on the verge of a whole new age of expansion & rebuilding. Railroads have already proven how "green" they can be, let us see what sort of partnership can be developed between the government and the private carriers. I am excited about developments already in progress and absolutely thrilled that AMTRAK now has a champion in the White House. Of course my interests are vested. My retirement income depends entirely on the health of the railroad industry in this country. Railroad workers earning money = Railroad Retirement earning money! Charlie
who woulda' thunk Oh yea hear we go again was sure the truth, I am not suprised at all that they would say what they did. it just gives those people that have nothing better to do than to cause trouble for the rest of us even more"power" . not to say that i or any of the rest of us would be doing anything illegal it just that some people don't have any common sence, an as we all know it only takes 1 doofus to mess up things for the rest of us. I know this all to well because I have 1 that lives across the valley from me and his nose is always in somebody's business.:mconfused:
Wow I wish I had read this thread sooner. "Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano this week suggested citizens should call law enforcement when they see someone taking a picture of "critical infrastructure."" Today is 9/11. How cool would it have been had we organized a mass "call law enforcement on everyone you see taking pictures of critical infrastructure day" for today? I bet that would show them how ridiculous these ideas of homeland security are. I live in San Francisco, a heavy business oriented city. ¤¤¤¤, any tourist with a camera within the whole bay area could be considered a threat if you look at it from this point of view! And no one has mentioned Google yet. Taking satellite pictures of the entire nation and even eye level street view of major cities then just distributing it free over the internet? I guess it's ok when a robot bolted to a Google-mobile photographs everything. But God forbid an actual human does it!
I have to agree with you, actually. Think about it. In Chicago, Bono and U2 were downtown because today they open the US Tour in Soldier Field. Think of all the tourists and fans taking photographs of the hotel where U2 is staying. Should we call them a "Threat?" Heck, I have a photography course I'm taking in college this semester, and I like to do Chicago Skyline photography, imagine if everyone had called me a threat for photographing for my HOMEWORK. Heh.
jeese soon we will have a sutch thing as a driveby photograph instaid of a triveby shooting we will have to snap a picture and leave ASAP nobody besides railfans like trains or want anything to do with making it better for railfans i mean seriously how do some railfans know whats railroad property and whats not and how do we know where the property line is i have a question for someone who knows this how close could you get to the tracks on the property without having the crew call it in or how close is the "waveing line" where if you get any closer the crew will wave fists at you instead of a wave and do the limitations change up in the woods in the middle of wnowere where a terrorist will have no reason to go are there diffrent limitations in gamelands
Definitely DO NOT stand near the edge of the ballast or on the grade of the R.O.W. A good distance to maintain would be no less than 20' from the R.O.W. That is about the distance I would keep when I did "roll-bys" at a meet. I would also maintain a low profile, kneeling or in the drainage ditch or sometimes the shorline of a creek. That would give me a broad enough look at the train to observe sparks or any leaning loads. It also helps to note if there are loose straps or tie-down cables or chains. Those are deadly! However, you wont feel it and you'll never realize what happened since you'll be killed instantly. Ballast can also fly from backwash caused by high speed trains. I cant begin to tell you how often we would hear ballast striking the undercarriage of the commuter coaches! That can give you a nasty or fatal injury as well. If the crew is yelling at you or waving you away, then you are too durn close! They dont need you to ruin their day, and possibly their paychecks,by your insistence on becoming a statistic. A good rule to follow is to select a location where you know other railfans watch and take pix of trains. You will have mutual acceptance and be among others who realize and appreciate what you are doing. The railroad police know the spots and the police and the crews usually recognize the regulars. I have mentioned before of the regular spots that fans gathered along the "Aurora Racetrack" and by Eola Yard. A lot of crews will spend some time to chat with you as long as it doesn't interfere with their moves and as long as you are in a safe location. Many railroaders are also railfans, although most of them dont admit it. One of our yardmasters has a huge HO scale layout and his club meets at his home. He has also been mentioned in several of the hobby mags. Charlie
Ah the Chicago-Aurora Racetrack. I used to take pictures near the Westmont Station. We stood behind a small plaza and used the same rules. I've heard ballast hitting those coaches and my friends and I always hide behind some sort of cover. Being that we stood near a mechanic shop, the owner usually let us hide behind the dumpsters to take photographs. We didn't have to worry about too many freight trains, though, as the ones we photographed were always in the middle. For those who don't know, the race track is a triple track system. Freight takes the middle, and the commuters take the outside track. But reguardless It's best to treat any trains that have flying chains or loose straps as if they were 2 inches from you. Best to never take a chance that could be your life.
After UP decommissioned Tower 17 in Rosenberg, Texas, they donated it to the local railroad museum. However it had to be moved off the property. A number of us volunteers from the museum signed wavers with UP to be allowed to prepare the old structure to be moved to the museum grounds. We had to wear all the standard safety gear and obey all the safety rules. Whenever a train was moving through the area we were required to stay inside the structure or at least 20' back. Many a time we were inside and heard something hit the outside of the tower as a train slammed over the diamond at close to 70 mph. Usually it was probably only a chunk of ballast that was kicked up by a bouncing tie and landed on the rail in front of a wheel to be shot out. Sometimes it was a part of a spring, a brake shoe or some other piece of metal that broke off a car. We had quite a collection of inter-box-connectors that are used to clamp intermodal containers together for double stacking. They must have been left loose on top of a container or in the well of a car and bounced off when the car hit the frogs. I would not want to be hit by one of them. This photo was taken from a spot way too close but the train was stopped at the time.
Not always! Since the operation is 3MT CTC the tracks are signaled in both directions and trains can & do use all 3 tracks all the time. Freights are not usually scheduled during the day unless they are quite early or late. Inbound freights are slotted so that they can enter the Chicago Sub during slack periods. During the "dinky parade" they are usually held west of Aurora or sometimes at MP 25.8 until an opening occurs. I have spent enough time enjoying the scenery at Big Rock or some other location while waiting on the parade. Charlie
Arrest in my area made for taking pictures I just found out at work today that there was a arrest made for someone who took photos. To my understanding of how the Homeland Security law is wriiten, no one can take any pictures of any facility of transportation equipment that deals with any type of explosives or hazzard materials such as propane, gasoline, oil, etc. Apperently this guy was taking pictures of a propane facility which has a active train that delivers product there by tank cars. The guy was warned 2 times and then finally arrested on the homeland security law and photos confiscated. I ca't say who, what company or any locoations. This is a no joke situation which seems to be taken seriously. In this light of view I guess I can understand, if for examplle a amonia tank car came thru and was blown up, there could be alot of deaths. I don't see any problems however with taking a picture of a box car or gondolla car full of scrap. Due to me learning this new information I will be deleting all of my tank car pictures. I'm taking no chances, be careful out there when rail fanning, they are taking this ew homeland security matter seriously.
