I've heard rumors, but nothing set in stone. I know UP want's to get out of the line, but hasn't had any takers...yet. As you well know, it is a well kept line, but with CN/IC controling the North Access to it at Joilet, it would be a hard sell to anyone EXCEPT CN/IC, or someother railway that is real chummy with CN/IC. (I wonder who that would be?) Now, about your comment on the crossing. The IDOT experimental barrier gates were NOT in operation due to the road construction taking place during the time of the accident (and I stress ACCIDENT). The standard RR crossing gates were disabled for a test by the UP signalman and WERE NOT RE-ACTIVATED. Thus, this "accident" IS the fault of the UP employee, not the young men that were killed. I feel for you, and your worry over what could happen to your boy if he doesn't watch for all the signs of an approching train. But if we were to rely on only staying vigilant at all train crossings, then the already high crossing accident rate would be astrnomical. Yes, there are some people that just don't care and are willing to gamble at the "already down gates", I have NO sympathy for them. But these young men were snuffed out by a careless UP employee and some of you, at least it seems to me, think that's "OK" because these were silly, loud music playing, reckless, not a care in the world youths. Sorry guys, that just don't flush! Should we all pay more attention at rail crossings and around railway property? YES! Will we be perfect and ALWAYS do that. NO! We're human folks and we make mistakes, some of them cost us our lives or the lives of others. ------------------ RAILROADING-TO-THE-MAX, Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Style! Brent Tidaback, Member #234
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aomhs: I agree that we need to increase grade crossong awareness, but your assertion that "MOST" teens walk with radios loud on train tracks isn't correct<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I didn't say most "walk", HOWEVER, I did say "MOST DRIVE with their radios blaring at extremely loud volume levels" and I don't know about your area, but 9 out of every 10 cars here in Central Florida that has a "teen driver", the damn radio is so loud and 4 of 10 with the BASS so hard that it can be felt two car lengths away. And THAT it is annoying and I know they can't even hear emeency vehicles because they never pull over when one is trying to get around them. They can't hear anything inside the vehicle because they have their radios on so damn loud and the windows up! If you can't hear a fire truck horn blaring directly behind you, you sure aren't going to hear a diesel horn or steam whistle at a rail crossing that could or may be malfunctioning. Of course there are just some drivers that are just too stupid to know to get out of the way of emergency vehicles and I've seen my share of these idiots too. Probably the same ones that drive around downed crossing gates. TT [This message has been edited by TrainTech (edited 11 May 2000).]
You make some good points TrainTech. The other day I was driving down the main artery in the town I live in and I heard a ambulance coming. I pulled to the right curb and stopped at once. The cars in front of me kept going and the cars behind me passed me and they all looked at me as they went around me like "What's wrong with you?" I was the only car that stopped for the ambulance. On car stereos, I had a loud one about 15 years or so ago when I was younger. Of course, that wasn't as loud as they play them today. I live about 3 blocks off the main street in the town I live in and at night when I am in bed with all of the windows closed I can still hear cars going up and down the main street and sometimes the bass shakes the windows in the house - 3 blocks away! When I lived in Kansas I worked at a radio station with extremely sound-proof studios. We built two six inch thick walls seperated by 4 inches of air - all soundproofed and two solid doors to go through to get in. We tested them by having a person stand right outside the studio and SCREAM as loud as they could. We never heard them inside the studio. The only external noise I ever heard in there was when someone would drive by with a car stereo that would shake the ground. You couls literally hear it and feel it inside there. It was actually pretty wierd. I am not familiar with the case being discussed here in this thread but if people get hit by a train for having their stereo too loud it would not surprise me. I remember when I was young and had mine, I got into the music and didn't pay attention as well as I should have and I couldn't hear anything else. ------------------ Ship It On The FRISCO!
Wait a minute, wait just a god-darn minute!The issue with this case is not a Stereo playing to loud! I hate those darn BOOM cars too, but that's not even an issue with this case! These kids couldn't hear the train because (and I'm only going to say this ONE LAST TIME!) a TRACTOR PULL (that's a VERY LOUD compatition) WAS IN PROGRESS AT THE TIME OF THE COLLISION! NO ONE COULD HEAR THE TRAIN, NOT ONE WITNESS! A lady in the car in front of the victims saw the collision in her rear view mirror. She didn't hear the train and was almost in the crash herself. The main reason these boys were killed was the inproper actions of the UP signal crew (caught on film) at the crossing just minutes before the crash. THAT'S THE FACTS FOLKS! The only real action UP has taken was to fire the crew (DUH!) and now make it look like keeping the Amtrak trains speeds at 79 MPH is going to save lives at grade crossings. That's total BUNK! Dead at 79 and dead at 110 is DEAD! ------------------ RAILROADING-TO-THE-MAX, Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Style! Brent Tidaback, Member #234
Maxwell, The last points being made about the loud radio playing was not in reflection to the teens that got killed on the tracks. After reading about the "tractor pull" I can understand that, but then maybe the relatives of these teens that were killed ought to also bring charges against having a tractor pull so close to the RR tracks that it made the crossing unsafe due to the excessive noise. Sure, the gates were not working because of someones incompetence, but doesn't that incompetence also reflect on those that would hold an extremely "LOUD" event right next to an operating and active railroad? There are other factors to consider as you have said, and these oher factors should also include the person or persons responsible for the tractor pull that made the crossing unsafe, even if the gates were in working order, there is always a possibilty of gate/crossing light malfunction. I have seen gates work for one train, go up and then another train come through and the same gates malfunction and not work, no lights or gates and then start working again, sometimes even work when no train is anywhere near them! So I would not only go after the UP worker that screwed up, I'd be damn well going after the idiots that also put an excessively loud tractor pull event next to "active" railroad tracks. That just wasn't too smart either! Anytime we have "tractor pulls" or such events they are miles away from any railroad tracks. So I guess the state in which those teens were killed have some pretty incompetent people setting events up where they shouldn't be held at all. These type of events belong out in the country areas, away from any and all railroad tracks and hopefully away from folks residences! Regards, TT [This message has been edited by TrainTech (edited 13 May 2000).]
TT, You are again stearing the blame to someone else other than the signal crew. McLean, Il. is a very small town and is virtually "out in the country" already. I'm sorry, you can't possibly fault the community activities for any of this. The gavel has already fallen on the signal crew. They are at fault, no one else. The original subject has somehow been swept under the rug, just like UP is trying to do with the blame for this collision. It's their track, their signal crew and THEIR RESPONSABLITY! Now they are trying (and evidently succeding with you and others) to shift the blame to someone else. "It was the trains speed, it was the tractor pull, it was the road construction, it was the kids not paying attention." No my friends, it was UP and their signal crew. Not allowing Amtrak to run at 110 MPH is not going to stop people from getting hit at any of the crossings on this line. The train speed through McLean wouldn't change, the NTSB, FRA, DOT or IDOT wouldn't allow them to run that fast through a town anyway. It's all smoke and mirrors to make UP look like the good-guy and it's not fooling me at all. Don't let it fool you! ------------------ RAILROADING-TO-THE-MAX, Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Style! Brent Tidaback, Member #234
Maxwell, you are misunderstanding my point. I am not blaming the town entirely here. I agree, it is the fault of UP, but if this town is as small as you claim, I feel that tractor pulls that create "excessive noise" should also be banned. I still say, that if that "noisey tractor pull" had not been in operation, the teens WOULD HAVE heard that diesels horn blaring and would probably be alive today wether or not there were any type of automated or basic wooden crossbucks marking the tracks. I would say UP is 90% at fault here for not making sure the automated gates and lights were working as they should have been, However, I still regard the person, persons or organization(s) involved in inititating the tractor pull are at least 10% to blame, if not a bit higher for the teens death. And if I were their parent(s) I'd be going after *BOTH* "UP" and "THE ORGANIZERS" of the tractor pull. Nor would I ever allow another such event in a town that is so small the event could be overheard over the entire town. Too me that is just downright ludicrous. TT [This message has been edited by TrainTech (edited 21 May 2000).]
AHH! Ok, I'm with ya' now. I haven't heard anything about the Town getting sued over the noise issue, but I'll keep an ear open. ------------------ RAILROADING-TO-THE-MAX, Burlington Northern/Santa Fe Style! Brent Tidaback, Member #234
Some of you know me, some dont, for those who don't, My name is Bannon, Im in the Safety, Health and Environment Department at VIA Rail Canada Inc., I have been following this forum closely and I have to agree with some things, and disagree with others... As far as that accident, wether UP is responsible or not, you can't take away the fact that the driver was too ignorant to Look, Listen and Live, but on the same side, UP should have had that semaphore working properly. I would like you to do something. Stand at a crossing, when you see the train coming, listen for the horn, then listen to where you cant hear the horn anymore, maybe its different from frieghts, but when our loco's come at a crossing, you can hear the horm maybe up until 100 meters away, then you cant hear it until maybe 100 meters after the train has passed, Ive tested this theory due to a headache caused by a Parent Teacher Association tryin to get rid of whistles at crossings ,at the sametime, do not get me wrong ,I think it would be stupid to get rid of horns and whistles but the fact is, if you dont look, listen, chances are you wont live. Our trains run at 100mph (155kph), we want 125mph/ ubt not until there are no grade crossings, we look at the altrenatives but frankly, they are not in our budget, the swedish have the best crossing barriers, but at 150,000 a pop, its highly unlikely we will see those considering there are 1000 grade crossings in our "corridor" (Quebec City to Windsor), or we can build a bridge, ya right, who's gonna pay for that? The city? hahahaha, not in a million years. I feel people need to keep an eye on locomotives, in 1998 the survival rate at a grade level accident was 11 percent. That tells me 89% of people who are involved in a grade level crossing DIE. But, with al this discussion, our trains arent goin any faster, and safety is hardly improving, maybe some minister or government cabinet member will read this and realize what the f*%$ is going on. Or maybe not and us railroaders will be left to converse about topics such as these. Thanks guys for letting me preach and ramble on. Any questions feel free to ask. Bannon ------------------ Bannon C Woods Jr VIA Rail Canada
