Thoughts on a new N Scale layout

tony22 Jan 27, 2014

  1. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    I'm wondering if there is a wall against the upper RH side of the plan.
    Also, have you considered switching places of the branch yard and the 4 track PRR main on the narrow shelf? This to put the branch yard on a different level from the main (higher), and with a slight wiggle, allowing the 4-track main to run the entire length of the layout. This would allow you to set out a nearly complete Broadway Limited, or a very long coal drag.
    This would entail making the tall dead-end bridge go over the main and to the branch yard (among other changes) instead of dead-ending at the wall. Quite possibly you can get a long twice around branch line that ends with a wye at a junction with the PRR main, but with a cut-off for running a loop continuously if needed. What the schematic would wind up is the branch starting off a wye with the main, winding around climbing elevation in the hills, then crossing on a high bridge back over the main to end at the branchline yard (or possibly a logging camp/mine and yard). plus various industries along the way.
     
  2. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    No Backshop, I'm afraid the upper RH side butts up against a bookcase. No way to go further in that direction. Interesting idea, though. Food for thought.
     
  3. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

    8,903
    3,622
    137
    Yes, that is about right but shorter would not be bad. There is no one rule but there are visual proportions to keep in mind. Most likely you will adjust it to fit as you finish the scenery.
    In terms of the 'yard area' you may want to combine 'working yard' with open staging. You may want a backdrop and a few tracks as a destination for the content from the spur.
     
  4. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    I've negotiated a bit more of a land grant from the property owner. So just to show the clean slate I'm attaching a new image of the space and the ".any" representing the Anyrail working file containing the assortment of switches available.

    The larger shelf area opens up possibilities I think. Yes we're still working with a Pennsy theme but I'm not sure how I feel about handing over part of this space to a 4-track portion that will really not be a "working" part of the layout. So I thought maybe something along the lines of a "hint" of 4 track might work. That's what I added to the very bottom of the shelf. I might be able to place an E8 or the like on the curve, and the curved turnout could give the notion of connecting with the high iron. It would take up less room than trying to represent the PRR 4 track as a straight on through-section. I could even do something like this in this section with one of the #10 switches and a diagonal cut of 4 track straights instead of curved.

    I want the rest of the space to be as much of a "working" layout as possible with the upper part allowing for continuous running but still having something to do.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    Aha, tony22 -- you are beginning to see that model layout planning is more than coming up with one or two plans, saying "Hey yeah that looks great!" and slapping down benchwork and track only to find when running trains it really ain't great -- a course many beginners take. Taking your time to refine the plan is time well-spent. I went through at least 2 dozen plans for the layout I'm now going to build, from flipped over versions to mirror image to extending this side to extending that side instead to bowl of spaghetti to aimless long single track, before I hammered out a decent plan (and I'm still tweaking). This despite the fact I've designed and built or had a hand in doing so for easily more than a dozen layouts from a 2'x4' to basement-filling to a modular club one. So don't stop drawing and fiddling until you get what you want, or close to it.
    Concepts are important too. A layout can be more than just trains running around on a track. For instance, you have big locos (and I assume long strings of cars) you'd probably like to display even if you can't run them. And you'd like to have a major 4-track RR scene,for flavor and to tie the branch line to. Why can't your layout do both - display your trains and have a realistic scene?
    You talk about "wasting" space for a 4-track main but consider this: in the choice between leaving your big locos and trains packed away, sitting behind glass in a display case, or posed on your layout, which do you choose?
    Most layouts -- and certainly ovals on small boards -- have a big dead space in the center that can't be used very well for any track or rail-served industries because of the switch angles, the short tight curves, and the lack of space to get any of these elements into a reasonably-realistic scene. So the center just gets filled with "stuff" or provides a place for a scenic divider to sit. The question is, can a depressed 4-track "dummy" main cross through the empty center of an oval and provide a display, heavy railroading, and believable scenery all in one?
     
  6. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    Ah Backshop, I've been reading Armstrong's books going back to the mid-70s. I am well versed in all aspects of the theory. I just don't have the artistic vision of someone like David to integrate all that theory into a feasible plan. I'll know it's right when I see it, and I can take an existing plan and maybe make a suggestion or two, but I don't have that "trigger" that gets an initial vision on to paper.

    David offered a plan a bit back in this thread showing a 4-track portion on the shelf, to anchor the overall plan as PRR. While I would love to show my E8s, F7 A-B pairs, and my 2-8-8-2 (I'm glad PRR had a few of those!), the available space means that if I put in enough 4-track high iron to provide for that kind of display it will impact what I continue to call the working space of the railroad. I don't want to either cram in track to show my big motive power (thus crowding the layout) or lose real estate that would otherwise contain track that will help the running consists get to where they're going. I think I like where I'm going with a hint of 4-track in the lower portion of the shelf

    I'm going to have to take the hit on this - keep the big stuff packed away in the hopes that someday there will be a layout where they can finally be put to work.
     
  7. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    What do you think of a plan that has a 4-track main at grade with a wye junction for your branch, which climbs a rising twice-around branchline route with cut-off for running an oval, ending at a small yard, engine facility and turntable with enginehouse, next to a large coal mine with a small yard of its own, the whole area higher than the mainline - AND open staging spaces for two short branchline sized trains, along with a long 4-track "boulevard of steel" to showcase your bigger trains? And long RR bridges and stone abutments, a la Pennsy-style? A large stream or small river? Rocky outcroppings? Lots of space for your branchline to wander through wooded hills, a couple of short spurs for industries along the way? Without looking like a bowl of spaghetti.
    The only new track you'd need is a wye.
     
  8. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    That sounds very intriguing, but I'll be darned if I can picture all that in the space I have for this plan!
     
  9. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    As soon as I put the labels on this thing, and figure out how to post it, you'll see for yourself. As a heads up, there is an 11.5" radius through one leg of the wye, and the climb up to the top of the hill is 2.5%, but the oval, big mainline, yard, and coal mine area are all basically flat. And -- wooee! -- 21" radius turnouts and #19s aren't very conducive for a 3 foot by 6 foot layout!!
     
  10. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    So I'm attaching two JPGs of a notional "how do I show this is a PRR owned branch" idea. I think this might be enough to give the flavor of Pennsy with, as I said before, not eating up too much operational space. The yard is preliminary but based on JA's representation of a stub yard in TPfRO, and I think what is a realistic size for the available space (things like caboose tracks etc not yet added).

    BTW Backshop, I laid out all the switches I have not with the expectation they'd be used, but just to show what I have on hand.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2014
  11. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    I'm probably different from most layout planners in that I try to incorporate the space available, real railroad practice, geology, scene separation,what kind of railroading the layout is to have, and what kind of operations are planned. Juggling all these elements at the same time is a trick but after a while certain patterns emerge among the various aspects.
    I do get the feeling from your comments that you really really really really would like a big long mainline (or part of one) in a nice scene, to at least look at your big trains, even if they're not running. I don't think you have to give that up. It would be too crowded? Look, a four-track main on a ROW with signals (Overhead catenary?) and an narrow access road is inherently "crowded" looking. And that's before you load it up with trains! But think about it -- the crowding is only along the ROW. You can have sheer cliffs on one side and a river flowing on the other (or it's the front edge of the layout) and suddenly it doesn't look like a spaghetti bowl.
    Here's a planning idea - look at this space as if it was only a corner of a large around the wall layout. How would you place a 4-track main running through it that connects to the rest of the layout at both ends?
    I'll go into detail on each of the features and track arrangements when I get to finish up my plan. I've got other commitments but I'll try to get it all done this week. Also, I found the listing of what turnouts you have and I need to re-work the plan to use the best switches in the best places.
    One thing: you should think about what you are going to use your yard for. A lot of yard tracks means either you'll be using lots of cars, you need the on-line storage, or you like the way a batch of yard tracks looks.
     
  12. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    I appreciate all the help I can get, Backshop. If you hadn't yet seen my Posts #1 and #4 I think it mostly gets to where I'm trying to go and what I accept as my realities.
     
  13. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    PRRDream1a.png

    Wow! I got this thing posted! More info to follow...
     
  14. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    tony22:

    "It's too crowded!!"
    I can bet that's what you said as soon as you saw this. It's crowded because I crowded it; there are elements that can be removed without changing the basic schematic, as I explain later. However, in 3D (which I wish I could save from my Right Track pgm) it may not seem so.
    First off, this was done on the old Atlas freeware RightTrackSystem, so it has all the proper Atlas Code 55 switch sizes. I used sectional track in the plan because, well, straight track is straight track so any flex length can be substituted when building it, and because sectional radii were close or on the radii you will want to use... 13.75" radius curve isn't much different from 14". By putting a .5" section in the middle of a curve you get the same positioning. And I don't like fooling around and wasting time doing a lot of flextrack adjustments.
    Second, I added/subtracted some of the original benchwork footprint at the inner corner, much like Smith did on one of his versions. But even that is adjustable...
    The branch starts at a wye off the mainline in the valley, circles around in the hills, climbing until it passes back over the mainline on a high bridge. There are several spurs along the way up. In the upper hills it splits into two routes, one which circles back around, the other leads to the branch terminal. Here there is a small engine facility, a simple yard, and a large coal breaker that loads hopper cars on 4 tracks.
    Operations are pretty straightforward: empty trains come off the main, go up the hill to the breaker where a switcher shuffles around cutting off the empties, pulling the loads, putting empties on the breaker tracks and then reassembling the loads into a train to go down the hill. The loads train then pulls onto the mainline through the wye.
    Track is divided into four sections: mainline, which is at zero height; the branch, which climbs at a 2.5% grade to circle up over the main to 2" height, then keeps rising to 2.5" height when it reaches where the line splits; the continuous loop, which begins at the split at 2.5" height and falls to 1.8" at the place where it rejoins the branch; and the tracks to the mine and yard, which sit level at 2.5" height. Optionally, the lead track going to the mine can rise another .5" before it levels out for the mine trackage.
    Several areas are labeled on the plan. The letter codes are for these notes (going from left to right across the plan):
    TT: Obviously the turntable. I'm not up on all the various N scale turntables available, and since engine length, era type, etc are things you will determine, I set an arbitrary size of 10", figuring that should accomodate any branchline-type loco. Obviously a smaller table would fit, too.
    S2: (two places) Open staging/storage tracks.
    T1: I don't know the radius of the inner track on the Atlas curved switch but it's obviously not 21". That is the radius I used as the outermost track of the curve.Thus the mismatched (red) track. You'll have to figure new mainline curve radii to match the radii of the switch. It should still be a nice-looking wide curve.
    GA (two places): Beginning of the grade for the branch.
    BC1: This curve of the oval can be put in a tunnel, or disguised by high trees, to hide the obvious oval shape of the track.
    SP1: Possible location for a spur, preferably a #5 LH switch.
    BC2: Possible short tunnel stretch here to hide the curve, but watching a loco the entire time it's climbing a grade may be better.
    WR1: This leg of the wye is only 11.5" radius. (All the rest of the curves at at least 13.75" R). The wye I used was the #3.5 -- the red overlay is the #2.5 you have. I think you'll need a 3.5; you'll have to experiment to see which fits best.
    ES1: A wooden trestle is recommended for this length of track (marked by the two leader lines). Not only because wooden trestles really say "Branchline", but a trestle is a good easy way for a curving track to cross another curving track. Though it can be done with steel bridges, they look pretty massive and "mainline". Trestles are not hard to build, and there are even plastic kits of them available to modify.
    GB: Top of branchline grade. It has to reach 2" above the mainline by this point.
    The only track powered on the mainline is the outer one, part of the wye. The others are unpowered and for show.
    TOPOGRAPHY:
    The Pennsylvania had some terrible terrain to get trains through but it's great for modelers. The
    "terrain" shown is just for example, but I tried to make it plausible. Obviously the river is the lowest point, at the bottom of the valley. The PRR followed rivers wherever it could, so the main is right next to the river and the next lowest piece of real estate. To get to the mine in the hills, the branch has to climb and twist. The creek that flows into the river runs down a draw, which is part of the route the branch uses to climb the grade. (You can made the grade even steeper that 2.5%, to provide a reason for "doubling the hill"). Circling back around the branch is on more level ground as it crosses back over the river and mainline twice before rising a bit more to get to the big flat yard/mine area. The oval for continuous running does go up and down a bit but nothing serious, just enough to give that low-key branchline atmosphere. I stuck in a few spurs for whatever small businesses would be working up in the hills -- possibly one can be for a hamlet. Between the river and the upper levels of the oval you have options for lots of kinds of scenery.
    The long jagged lines on the plan mark inclines, either steep or shallow. Some can be nearly sheer rock cliffs, others can be wooded slopes. It's pretty plain which is which. For instance, the slope between the river and the mainline is rock outcropping, fill with rock retaining walls, or any of the other versions of boundaries between river and track on the steep banks. Tunnels are also marked, though not every small bridge over the creek. Those would be "design in place" details. And if you eliminate the creek, no need for bridges over it.
    At the window shelf you have three different levels: the mine, highest (optional), the turntable area, a little lower, then the mainline at least 2" below that. This is to make each area seem separate from the others. By putting a tree-covered slope between the turntable tracks and the main you separate the scenes visually even more. The mainline can be lowered a little at each end, to make even more separation. The wye part needs to stay at zdero height, tho.
    "Too crowded": If my grand explanations don't sway you and it still seems so, you can cut the 4-track mainline down to 2 or even 1, just the (powered)one that forms part of the branch wye and staging tracks. The coal breaker area can be reduced to 2 loading tracks and a single runaround track for the yard. The enginehouse/yard can be pared down to a single track to the turntable, and a single stall house (or no house at all). If there's even too many spurs on the oval you can prune them away. All this without losing the operations and train running length of track.
    Since there's only one real grade, construction shouldn't be too hard either. You should be able to determine a convenient place to split the two sections for transport - and since 3 out of 4 mainline tracks have no power that makes less of a wiring connection between sections.
    There are other options. Take away the coal breaker and put in a lumber mill -- the spurs on the oval now are looging tracks, from which a Heisler or Shay drags the log cars over to the mill, the yard switcher works the plant and makes up/breaks up lumber car product trains, and a larger loco hauls the trains up and down to the mainline and beyond. I'm sure there are other industrial scenarios that could work here.
    What I wanted to design is a logical and realistic branchline model: the mainline on flat land, a wye where the branch connects to it, and an industry at the top of the hill big enough to justify a branch line, small yard, AND an enginehouse/turntable. And getting the scenery to fit.
    This was a lot of fun for me, as I like these kinds of exercises. I have no problem designing plans, but am not good at dreaming up the various-sized spaces that need them. The opposite of most people, who know what space they have to fill but no idea how to design a layout to fit it.

    Oh, before I forget, the list of switches needed:
    7 RH #5
    5 LH #7
    2 RH #7
    1 #3.5 wye
    2 LH Curved 21"
    1 RH Curved 21"
    That's for the "too crowded" version:teeth:
     
  15. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    Backshop... wow. Certainly first let me say thanks for the work and the write up. There's a lot here to look at (and read!). This is going to take a bit of time to evaluate. I'll try to build it up in AnyRail and see how it "feels" as I do so.

    Trainboard is some great place. People like you and David (and others) being so helpful.
     
  16. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    Sorry about the encyclopedia entry, but I tend to create the history and reason for existence of a layout while I'm drawing it up. What the main thing you should get from what I wrote is you can modify the plan in various ways -- number of mains, size of main industry, turntable or not, grade of the branch, how big a branch yard, even where the rivers flow -- and still get the basics you want: PA scenery, branchline with spurs, and continuous running. I'm not there at people's layouts to see the actual space or set out track pieces to see how they fit, so I try to give lots of options and leeway in my plans for the owner to make on-the-spot adjustments.
     
  17. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    I like the approach. When I designed a larger layout (at the time I thought I'd be able to use the spare bedroom) I spent quite a bit of time going over old maps of PRR branch lines in Western PA. I like to have a reason for a model railroad to be there. Unfortunately that one is in the virtual filing cabinet until someday when I can get the needed space.

    I've started migrating your proposed layout into AnyRail. Looking interesting.

    What's your track spacing between the 4 track main?
     
  18. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    Backshop, what curve radius is being used in the BC2 area?
     
  19. tony22

    tony22 TrainBoard Member

    446
    1
    16
    Okay Backshop. This is my AnyRail interpretation of what you showed above. For the life of me I can't figure out how you got an 11.5" radius in the WR1 area; I had to piece together small sections of 10" radius curves to even get what I got. I could not get that curved section to stay in the layout area without staying below 11.5" for many sections of that entire curve.

    Having said that, it's most intriguing how you've kept a portion of the PRR 4 track main in a way that makes it usable. I haven't finished the (what would be) yard section, but I wanted to show how it looked and what the remaining switches are before continuing. Ideas welcome. Given the yard (or whatever it is) will be at roughly the same elevation as the coal loading section I think it would have to be some purpose built yard instead of a general rail yard.

    I've also attached another pic of something I was working on based on one of David's suggestions. I haven't decided yet if it's better to leave the yard tracks at an angle like that, or try to curve the yard approach so that I have more room to the left. Then maybe I could put a mainline hint of PRR there (kind of the way David did, but a little different) and still leave room on the right for some industries / stores served by the small coal or logging area on the main portion..... Or, if I curved the yard approach and pointed the yard tracks a bit more straight down, I could curve the trestle section more so that it extends to the left side of that shelf section. That could make for a really dramatic mine or logging focus area. But it would kiss the prospect of a PRR 4 track main out the window.

    Well, some of the things that are bubbling around in my head.


    el_7g.jpg el_7e.jpg
     
  20. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

    360
    1
    12
    Sorry about the late reply. As to 4 track spacing, I used the default of 1.5", I think. What I did was just link together all the mains with #5 crossovers so I could move them en masse. So those crossovers near the tunnel aren't part of the plan, just a help to design. Also I used more switches of types than you have, but not in any critical places so you could substitute #10s for #7s and #7s for #5s you don't have.
    The curve of the wye track on my version starts with a #5 RH switch on the main, four sections of 11.25" R curve sectional, a #3.5 wye, and three sections of 13.75" R to finish the 180 turn. This gives me (on RightTrack) a half-circle 2'3.5" (give or take .25") from end of #5 switch to end of 13" track section. The radius changes from 1'3.2" to 1'2.4" between the #5 switch and the Y. Try duplicating this arrangement on your pgm and see how close I got.
    I'm glad you made up a complete version on Anyrail, as I tend to use bits and pieces stuck into gaps and don't always align the ends of "joined" track. Think of this like a route map of a railroad, showing where all the lines go but not intricately detailing all the trackwork at yards, junctions, etc. I just gave you an example of what I thought could be done so you could take it and duplicate it using the precise equipment you want.
    I'm glad you like the 4-track main slanting across the layout space. And it looks like you did manage to get my original version built in AnyRail. Great! What IS the radius of the inside curve of the Atlas Curved switch, btw?
    The river in my plan could be eliminated to make tracklaying of the branch over the main wye easier, with less bridging. Both legs of the wye could punch through tunnels of a ridge carrying the branch and come out to join just before the Y switch. The river could be imagined to be along this side of the main and just off the edge of the layout.
    I agree that there should be some impressive reason why the RR builds a long branch up to the top of a hill, not make it just a car storage yard. Since I know little about the industries that flourished in that region, you will have to choose the most appropriate. I asked you before what your intentions about a yard were -- a place used for operations, a place to store cars, a interchange? In my version the yard is there because the breaker used a lot of cars, and the long distance to town meant the only practical thing was to take long strings of hoppers there all at once, then store and use them as needed, until enough loads were collected to run back to the main yard. In your second version the layout looks much more like a small independent railroad, with a small general yard where the cars collect off the railroad's industries to be sent out in trains to major RRs, or set out on interchange. And, the yard receives inbound interchange to be sorted and delivered to their industries. The oval part also looks more like a bigger RR operation, with only the long spur as the branch. But you have way more yard than needed to take care of the on-line industries.
    In my plan the branch engine facility isn't a yard -- the coal breaker trackage is, only thing being the yard is directly connected to the industrial spurs. The railroad had no need thus to build a yard of it's own; all it needed was a place to service and turn around the early steamers that had to make the long trip up the mountain and back. Actually the turntable lead would have come off the end of the coal mine yard, not needing the long double-track lead I have on it now. That area could then be either scenery or used to make a stub-yard addition to the coal mine complex (or lumber mill, or coking kilns, or foundry, whatever). What kind and type of cars you have may also help your decision. If you have a lot of hopprsm a coal mine. If you've got bulkhead flats, double door boxes, woodchip cars, skeleton log cars,etc then a lumbermill. Tank cars? Small oil well patch, pump, storage tank and car loading facility. Reefers? Say the branch leads not to a hilltop but over it to the next valley, and have fruit packing and shipping. Once you choose a major industry, some of these others might be used for the other short spurs along the line. Even a creamery might be feasible. (of course, if you set out long freights on the mainline any kind of freight car is usable).
    Whether the engine area is the same height at the yard or not is up to you. The Milwaukee Road in Bellingham, WA, had a lead off the turntable on a 15% grade down to the main line! The lead was also very short, less than half a block. The only reason the MILW got away with it was only single locos used it, not whole trains.
    So knowing exactly or close to what kind of railroading you like is important to decide before one starts drawing up plans, as the operation affects what the model should look like.
    Some construction notes: try to make any tracks crossing over obstacle like mains, rivers, etc, as straight tracks. Much easier to find bridge kits for straight track than curved. Crossing over covered trackage doesn't need to. And looking at the crossovers you put into the main on your plan made me realize that by backingover crossovers, you could actually store 4 short trains on those mains, using 2 mains.
    Another feature of my plan is, who knows, maybe someday you will get a large space to build your big railroad, and you'll already have a corner done of the 4-track main that goes around the room. Just modify and extend each end of this main. And one end going into a tunnel helps in that transition.
    Here's what suggest people do once they've gotten a plan more or less finalized on paper: get some big pieces of cardboard -- ask for throwaway boxes at appliance stores or bike shops, usually they have to pay some service to take them away -- the cut and paste bif pieces of cardboard togetrher to match the area of the layout. Then either draw full-size track or (easier) use Unitrack or the like set out on the cardboard to get clear view of how thuings will look when completed. Here you can see if track is too close together, or doesn't look right, or needs to be slightly modified, whatever. Use bunched up towels for hills, built kits or mock-ups for buildings to get an idea of what towns and hills look like among the tracks. It's almost like actually building the thing but w/o a lot of time and expense, to find out before you do all that if you'll like the finished product or not.
    Here's hoping you decide to keep the 4-track main, and those long Pennsy trains look good on it.
     

Share This Page