'Starter DCC' layout

disisme Sep 26, 2003

  1. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    OK guys. My end intention is to run a small - medium N scale layout with full DCC, but since the wifey wants a HO 'christmas train' and has 2 locos, I think I am going to let her layout be my guinea pig for DCC. With the track being a simple oval (kinda) with a single spur, wiring obviously isnt going to be a nightmare.

    What 'stuff' would I need to get myself running both trains on this layout via DCC, with a view to ripping that stuff off and using it in my n scale later?
     
  2. Mike Sheridan

    Mike Sheridan TrainBoard Member

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    Well, you're going to get a lot of different advice about which system to get. As well as that have a look at some of the supplier sites (eg. TTX) as they do 'guides', albeit perhaps biased to what they sell ;) , so look for those who supply several different makes.

    For your specific situation I have one tip - if the HO locos have low current draw, you can use 'N' size decoders in them which you can transfer later.

    For the rest of the kit you will need basically the same stuff for N or HO, so just get what suits you. (I believe N uses a slightly lower voltage than HO, can't remember for sure off the top of my head, but any self respecting system will be settable for that).

    As a 'puter-person you shouldn't need much help with programming anyway :D
     
  3. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    :D

    OK...what are the 'good' brands, and what 'bits' make up a DCC system for, say, 4 trains (single operator here!), ignoring decoders.... just the major components?
     
  4. N_S_L

    N_S_L TrainBoard Member

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    For the simple oval, you'll only need the "Command Station" and however many decoders (1 per engine that you'll run).

    The Digitrax Zephyr is what I got... for basic layouts like mine it's great. Looking at ~$175-$200 for it plus 20-30 for each decoder (plus the engine obviously). You can see my setup on the links in my signature block.

    I picked up 2 Atlas SD-60s from a guy who was selling other train lines on ebay for $65 each with preinstalled decoder - expecting them tomorrow :D I can give you the guys email if you want, he delt with me directly - no ebay hassles. Email me if you want that info.

    [ 26. September 2003, 04:41: Message edited by: nscale_lover ]
     
  5. rsn48

    rsn48 TrainBoard Member

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    The Zephry is the best entry level system out there right now. And it can expand with your needs. For example, you may not be interested in computer running or signalling right now... but if latter you change mind, you have a system that can grow with you.
     
  6. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    Right, so Digitrax is the way to go then...being a computer geek with 2 PC's that arent doing anything (at the moment!), obviously I'll hook one up eventually, just to see! Thanks guys... Will trek out to a RR shop to check em out.

    Probably not worthwhile getting the email address because we'd have serious frieght costs on top coming from Dallas to Aus. Mind you, I have a buddy in the US postal service (in Dallas too!) who gets stuff to me cheap :>)
     
  7. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    umm, guys, I can find references to the challenger, bigboy and chief digitrax systems, but not a Zephyr.... is that a new model of one of the old ones, or is it superceded?
     
  8. ncng

    ncng TrainBoard Member

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  9. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    Great, thanks Dave.

    What are all the 'bits'.... OK, obviously I will need a command station/Booster and throttle plus decoders for each loco, and that loco test thingamajobbie looks handy. When would I have to add another booster? Yeah, I realise thats a pretty broad question.....How many loco's on how large a track would, say, a 4.5Amp booster allow me to run (very ballpark!)??
     
  10. rsn48

    rsn48 TrainBoard Member

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    I just went and grabbed the first MR my hand reached and looked for an N scale review of an engine. In the June 2003 issue, the N scale Fairbanks-Morse B-B road switcher was reviewed. The results are fairly consistent with today's engines. The "stall" speed is the highest current draw on an engine.

    With the above engine, the stall current is .03 of an amp. So figure out how many of these one amp could run.

    But let's assume a .25 amp stall current draw. That means with a 4.5 amp booster, you could run 18 engines at one time. But in reality many more.
     
  11. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    Stall draw, I gather, is the time between the engine (at rest) 'cycles up' to start moving, right? So it draws most current getting underway, not when actually running? Sounds logical. Thanks. I realised after I asked that questions that it was a bit silly, beause its gbonna be VERY dependant upon how many switches you have in your DCC layout too (as opposed to seperately powered). So a really large layout with a hundred or so switches, irrespective of whether they are 'route grouped' is gonna cut you back to 3 or 4 engines unless you start boosting amperage. Can you do that? ie, have your 4.5A 'master' and another 4.5A unti piggy backed off it?
     
  12. ncng

    ncng TrainBoard Member

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    Stall is when you have full power applied to the locomotive and the wheels will not turn. This is a lot higher draw than required for overcoming starting friction.

    :eek: NO. You cannot piggy back boosters. It is one booster per section. Each section must be isolated from the next section. That means both rails have to have isolated joints. If you need more power in one section then you have to buy a larger booster for that section or break the section into two sections with two separate boosters. I have a very large HO scale layout and I only have my 5 amp command station and one 5 amp booster. At my operating sessions I usually have 7-8 trains running at once usually with 2 locomotives at least per train.

    Forget about powering switch machines with your DCC command station/booster. Use an auxiallary power source for that. Even if you get stationary decoders to drive your switch machines, you can still (and should) power them with auxiallary power. The Command station/booster do not have accessory connections like on a regular power pack.

    David

    [ 03. October 2003, 01:27: Message edited by: ncng ]
     
  13. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    So the stationary decoders still take their signals from the command statioon, but are powered seperately? Can you odo that? I thought the signals were carried in the current wave, and if so, that means its getting current from 2 places?

    So you power the switch motor from power supply x, the decoder from the rails, and the decoder jsut fires a momentary switch to 'fire' the switch motor, right? So grouping your switches would still work I gather
     
  14. ncng

    ncng TrainBoard Member

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    I can only address the Digitrax DS54 stationary decoders but in simple terms, yes. The DS54 controls 4 switchmachines. If you are using Tortoise type stall motors each output can control 2 switchmachines as you would have at a crossover.

    To hook up the DS 54 requires a connection to the track power buss Rail A and Rail B. The DS54 gets the control signals from this connection as you noted. That allows you to use the DS54 with ANY DCC system.

    The DS54 also has 2 wire connections to either AC or DC auxillary power. This is an optional connection when using stall motor type switchmachines but you must use auxillary power if you use selenoid type switchmachines. If you don't use auxillary power then the power from the Rail A and Rail B connections is used.

    The only need to connect the DS54 to the LocoNet buss is if you want feedback from the DS54 or if you program in cascading routes that include other DS54 units. If you don't use feedback or cascade routes then you don't need to connect to LocoNet. The DS54 only sends signals on this connection, it does not receive signals on it.

    Yes, if you are talking about selenoid type switch machines. If you are talking about stall motor switch machines then not completely correct. If you tell the DS54 that you are using stall motor switch machines, it outputs a continuous voltage to the switch machines. Yes, you can still group your switches but you will only be able to control a single selenoid type switch machine per output of the DS54. It doesn't have enough power, even with aux power, to throw more than one selenoid at a time. There are other LocoNet certified stationary decoders by another company that incorporate a Capacitor Discharge circuit on their board. I believe it is called the DAC-10 but don't quote me on that.

    David
     
  15. Mike Sheridan

    Mike Sheridan TrainBoard Member

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    Two quick points.

    I'm thinking from the above that you may not realise that the DCC command station/booster is usually only a box of electronics - you need to provide a separate mains to low voltage power supply for it. (I'm not familiar with the Zephyr, but if it is 'all-in-one' then make sure your local mains voltage is OK for it.)

    I'd suggest that stationary decoders and switch machines is getting a bit beyond a starter layout. As David has explained, they need treating somewhat differently from your locos and are easy enough to add on later, so I would hold fire on that for a while. There may also be good reasons for NOT using DCC to control switches - depends on how you will be operating.
     
  16. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yes, good advice I'm sure. Initially I'll use the wifes christmass HO door layout to get a feel for DCC, which will eventually be cfhnaged back to single loco running, and the DCC will be move to my version oof Paul Templars Raton Snake Valley in n scale...quite an intimidating project for my first venture into n scale. That layout, as you can see from Paul's Badger Creek pages is, umm, 'comprehensive'. Being a computer geek, I am going to want to computerise everything I can, simply because I can! Its an excuse to use one of my old computers for something :>)

    My plan is to start small.... 2 HO Locos on an extended oval,, Then the mainline on the n scale layouot, then switches, then signals, then computerisation. slow but sure. I'm sure I'll be throwing a million billion questions at the great knowledge base available here on Trainboard :>)
     
  17. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    OK...heres a question to show what I noob I am.... Do you have to have isolated blocks of track in a DCC layout, or can the entire layout be 'live'. For example, do sqitches need to be isolating type, is there a need to use insulating joiners etc? I am thinking that, since all the locos will be decoder equipped, there shouldnt be a need for any section to be seperately powered, should there (besides the fact that one problem affects the whole layout) ??

    Are blocks used in DCC, with the BUS cables, to keep the length of powered track to a minimum or something? Why do people use blocks in DCC? Is it just a historical thing?
     
  18. ncng

    ncng TrainBoard Member

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    No, blocks are not required. You can have your entire layout as a single block. You still must protect against short circuits so you will need isolated joints anywhere a short circuit would occur. This includes crossovers, diamonds, and reverse loops.

    That said, depending upon the size of the layout, you may want to "section" it. That is, break it up into zones that can be isolated from each other. This can be done by using more than one booster, using CB devices like the Digitrax PM42 or similar devices by Tony's Train Exchange, or with toggle switches.

    The reason for zoning it is because with DCC, a short circuit anywhere on the layout will shut the entire layout down unless you zone it. Some zoning ideas include making your yard one zone and the mainline another zone while making a branchline another zone. Personally, I have broken my layout into 7 zones. Mainline east, mainline west, branchline to town A, branchline from town A to town B, and then yards. When a derailment in Town A occurs it only shuts down 1/7 of the layout.

    If you plan on using signals you will still need blocks.

    As to why others still use blocks, I can only provide some quesses:

    1. Transition from block control to DCC.
    2. Trouble shooting isolation method.
    3. Run DCC and DC at same time on separate portions of layout.
    4. ????

    David
     
  19. disisme

    disisme TrainBoard Supporter

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    So, based upon Paul Templars Raton Snake Valley layout in HO scale ( http://www.paultemplar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/plans.htm ), I;d have the mainline on one block, the lower yard on another, The upper yard on another, and the reversing loop on yet another (not sure about that reversing loop.... might cut that off and make it a loco turning point / branchline that dead - ends), and the branchlines at the bottom on others. I guess that would let me stage while constructing the rest of the layout (who can wait for the whole thing to be finished before running trains!).

    4. Reversing loops
     
  20. ncng

    ncng TrainBoard Member

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    :rolleyes: You got me on number 4. I forgot about reverse loops. I have 2 of them. I use a Tony's Train Exchange PSRev for each one. I personally love it. Two wires in and two wires out, period. The Digitrax PM42, MRC reversing module, and most boosters also support reverse loops. Also, you can rely on the tried and true twin DPDT toggle switches but this also risks shutting down part of the layout if you forget to throw one of the toggles correctly.

    David

    [ 14. October 2003, 16:32: Message edited by: ncng ]
     

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