Hi, I'm new to this forum. Years ago I was into HO scale MRR and have recently decided to try to get back into the hobby but this time in N Scale. I don't have alot of room for a layout, so before I make the investment, I'm wondering is it possible to have a small N Scale layout? The space I have is about 24"x48". I'm not looking to run actual operations, but something that my young daughter and I can build together and the family can enjoy. Ideally, I'd like a 1940's theme. If the layout could run two trains together, that would be great. One train would be a commuter train, going through a small town with a station, and the second would be industrial with a siding at a factory and a small classification yard. Is what I've described to much for 24"x48"? If so, what min. size would I need for this? I appreciate your input.
The thumbnail conclusion has always been that a 2x4 in N scale is roughly equivalent to the standard 4x8 in HO. So if you're used to HO, you pretty much know what you can get away with on a 4x8 in terms of layout and complexity; the basics are that 18" and 22" snap-track curves worked, in N you're looking at sectional 9 3/4" and 11" Atlas C80. The switches and track geometry are basically the same by design...but... on a tight layout design there are just enough differences that you can't build off of an HO plan and have it work precisely. As in HO, you can push the envelope smaller, but when you do, nasty things happen. If you go back to the old 1960's Atlas HO track plan books you'll see they did over and unders on a 4x6 (aka 2x3 in N). I've done a stacked loop-to-loop logging layout with 4% grades and 8" curves on 18x36" in N but most people consider me nuts with that plan and it is very restrictive. Can be done, just not always practical. Like 15" radius curves in HO. To do what you want to do the 2x4 is pretty much about as small as you want to go, seriously, and the geometry for sectional track in N basically assumes that is about the minimum size as well. Don't let 25 people on the forum tell you its too small and that you have to go bigger to have fun. Bigger is better for a lot of reasons; one being that the 9" curves in N scale just LOOK a lot tighter and more toylike than 18" in HO, don't know why, it's just perception. But it's not that they won't work or can't be done. One thing you can do that really helps N scale is to get it UP off the floor; 36" is too low, 42" to 48" is much better for height. That helps a lot of the HO vs. N perception problems. Despite the grumbling you'll see here, most equipment still can handle 9 3/4" curves OK. Truck-mounted couplers help. Beware of longer diesels with the couplers on the frame, if you remember the HO grief with Athearn vs. Tyco stuff it will all come back to you. A 2x4 can be stored in a lot of places, vertically, under a table or bed, you name it. There's also a big place in the N hobby for the "HCD" "Hollow Core Door" layouts which run around 30-36" x 80" door size, those are great as well, and give you just enough more space to do a lot more if you can find a place to put it.
My current layout is 27 x 47. It will not run 2 trains together, but that wasn't my goal with this one. The problem I see with a 24 x 48 is going to be the tight curves and if you want to run long passenger car they may present problems. I can run them on mine with 11 inch radius curves but they don't look good doing it. Trying to get 2 lines running in the 24 inch space means one line will need even tighter curves. If this is OK with you then I don't see any reason to not go for it. If you can make it bigger though every bit will help. Dave
You should be able to get two 9 and 3/4 inch rad. tracks in that space plus a couple of crossovers and a couple of short siding or spur tracks to the inside part of the layout. A small passenger station with a freight room at one end and with a short track running to the backside of the station where a mail or express car could be set out. Short single end sidings could service some small businesses typical of the small rural town. A few that come to mind would be a small feed mill and a small fuel dealer. Depending on your preference for steam or diesel several locos come to mind. For steam the 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 and the small 4-6-0 for the passenger run. For diesel I would suggest the RS-1, add a steam generator to the short hood end and you have a dual service unit, and the 44 or 70 tonners for freight. Most of the cars would be of the 40 foot variety and for passenger cars I would suggest a Wheels of Time coach and a baggage which are about 70 foot cars. If you can find them the Bachmann 65 foot coach and combine would be a small pair and they are 65 footers. The smaller locomotives and cars I've suggested will look okay on the 9 and 3/4 and run okay and the shorter passenger cars will be allright particularly the hard to find Bachmann heavyweight shorties. What I would suggest is to get some newsprint or other style paper, tape some sections together to get your actual proposed layout size, and then trying with pencil and ruler laying out your track plan.
Thanks for the quick replies! So it sounds like what I want is "do-able" with some compromises like maybe length of cars, the "look" of tighter raidus curves, etc. I can definitely get the the layout up higher to around 48" off the floor. I can use AutoCAD drawing software to do the layout, but I don't have any dimensions for the turnouts. Any idea where I can get the dimensions for those sections? I guess the next question would be do you have any suggestions where I might get ideas for a track plan for what I'm looking to do? Again, that's so much for your input.
You should be able to fit two loops on a 2 x 4 foot space. The outer loop would use 11 inch radius curves, and the inner loop would use 9.75 inch radius curves. Sectional track with these radius curves are widely available. Note that the outer loop will *barely* fit on a 24 inch deep board. This would mean you can't have any sidings on the outside, and with limited space in the interior you will not have much yard/siding space to store trains that are not running. And it is much more fun to run trains, even on a "roundy-round" layout, if you can quickly switch between train 1 and train 2, and without having to assemble the new consist by hand. Are you 40 years old yet, and if so, do you have difficulty seeing the N scale wheels while putting a car or loco on the track? Young kids can also have difficulty with this. These are reasons why storing trains intact on a siding can be very helpful. If you can get even another 2 inches of depth, then you could have a longer siding outside the outer loop. Another point is that with a layout this small, you should forget about any rises or grades for your track. You can put a hill or a valley in the scenery, but keep your tracks level. I will echo the suggestions made above that you avoid long rolling stock. Six-axle diesels almost always have body-mounted couplers, and if coupled to a car having truck mounted couplers, they will throw that car off the track at the straight-to-curve transitions. I would suggest you find four-axle diesels which have truck mounted couplers (I'm not sure which modern diesel models have that). Steam engines, if you get them, should be kept to small sizes, and forget about any steam engine having 8 drivers, unless they are small drivers with blind flangeless drivers in the middle, such as the Athearn 2-8-0 Consolidation (which actually does pretty well on tight curves). Long passenger coaches such as those representing modern commuter cars will probably run on 11 inch radius curves (I have done this), but they will not look right - but maybe your kids will not care about this? Your tracklaying needs to be done very accurately with these sharp radius turns. Flextrack has its own learning curve, and given the small size of your layout, I would be inclined to recommend sectional track. I'm going to ignore the Atlas Code 55 option, even though it is beautiful, because it is more demanding on things like wheel gauges being totally accurate, and also because it will not run older rolling stock having larger flanges. The remaining options include Kato Unitrack, Atlas code 80 sectional track, and Peco code 80 turnouts. If you doubt your ability to lay track that will be trouble-free and that will not cause derailments, you might want to consider Kato Unitrack. There are many here who will attest that Kato Unitrack gives them trouble free operation. If this layout is for your kids, they probably care less about whether the gray built-in roadbed looks real, or whether the tie spacing is proper for US railways, and probably care more about seeing the trains run and run without derailments.
Thank you Carl. Yes, I am over 40 and fastly approaching 50. Thankfully, I can say that I should be ok (for now) with putting N Scale cars on the track. If 2" more in depth will help with sidings, I can do that. I wasn't planning on any grades, maybe a tunnel through a hill area in one of the corners of the layout. The layout is for the kids and mostly entertaining purposes, but I want to try to keep scenery and the track looking as realistic as possible. Just my preference, but I'm not a big fan of the simulated roadbed of Unitrak or E-Z track. I'd rather ballast the track myself.
27" x 34" double track loop crosswired so 1 power pack could run 2 trains at same time in opposite directions. I don't remember the track radii- whether I used standard-train-set 9 3/4" radius on the inside and 11" outside, of whether I used 9 3/4" on outside and flextrack curved substandardly tight on the inside. But it was too tight and trains sideswiped. I still had the "look" of a double track line, and 2 through lihnes with 2 spurs alongside gave some impression of a yard in very small layout. Note that the width of this layout was not the often mentioned 2 feet but 27 inches. Two or three extra inches width does help. I suggest not being locked into that standard available 2x4 feet...\ On the "Lighter than Air" railroad, I tried to build the smallest "operating" layout conceivable. 2x3 feet with an interchange of the edge where cars are delivered by an imnaginary connecting trunkline railroad. A switcher can grabs cars from the connecting track, then run counterclockwise around the loop and push cars into the warehouse and helium delivery track at left. In order to switch cars at the fuel delivery track inside right end or the end ramp and flatcar unloading area inside left end, the switcher must leave cars on the loop track and run around the loop track clockwise to get on the other ends of the cars to drop them in those spurs. Another trick- look at crossover at bottom. To avoid an S curve, the switch into the warehouse track has straight side going to the spur and curved side to the loop track, so it continues the curve. The normal thinking would be to complete the curve and not put on a turnout (track switch) until you get on the straight. But that would put the track curving one way through bthe curve and jerking back the other way into the spur- an S curve with the potential to derail cars. In every track switch located next to a curve, the track curve curves the same way as the curve connected to it.
THE NORTON BROTHERS CONNECTING RAILROAD (NBC RR) This is a 2 by 4 foot layout I built for 2 grade school boys. Divided down the middle into two one-foot-deep scenes-- different places! so a train can "go somewhere." One side was a very condensed model of a scene alongside the Port of Corpus Christi with an export grain elevator and a shipside loading area. The other side a farm town with a connection to a trunkline railroad, and a local small-town grain elevator. This layout gives the train and the train crew "something to do" besides run around in circles and "someplace to go." But it still allows endless running in circles. COLORADO GENERIC RR 2x4 feet, mountain scenery that "dwarfs" the trains, 2 places to switch- behind the station, and a track up to what could be a mine (left for boy to furnish mine) THE SANTA FE AND SOUTHWESTERN DESERT RR 2x4 feet desert scenery. Track all on one level but scenery drops down below track to allow bridge without a grade. 2 spurs, 1 near station for unidentified generic industry, and one to what could be a mine... [lmg]http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/554/gardnrlay.jpg[/img]
Here is a basic "concept" which would allow for one train to run on the "main" while the 2nd switches industry: Consider this more of an abstraction than a plan. It would need a "run-a-round" which could be from the "yard lead" to the bottom yard track. Another concept / abstraction: Notes: Siding at top would hold 1 Geep and maybe 2 short cars Switchback would have to be adjusted to hold more than loco and 1 car You may wish to think in terms of 2"s deeper and 12"s longer Operationally you could think of this as an interchange where two railroads exchange cars
What four extra inches wide can do...2 feet 4 inches wide allows a passing siding on one end. That can be used to have two trains, one on a track turned off which another runs. For instance a passenger train and a freight train. Or a "through" freight train and a local peddler switcher. Or passing siding can be used for runarounds. Another dead end track alongside the passing siding makes it look just a little bit like a yard. This uses the background down the middle to divide into two scenes, one a port, the other a military base. Similar track plan, similar space with a connection through the middle for a loads out-empties in switching arrangement between a coal mine and a coal burning power plant. http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/552/CirCoal1.JPG Now on a "much bigger" 3x4 “Oklahoma” layout. Just one passing siding. LOOKS like a passing siding at the town on top part of the plan, LOOKS like part of a yard on lower part of plan. The plan includes town, field, river and bridge, railroad yard, overpass. Can acommodate a passnger train and a freight train-- but one has to "park" while other runs.
I've built a couple "goof" 2x4's in the last couple years, and I tell ya- they are quite confining. An extra few inches either side and you'll be far more pleased. Have you considered diong a layout that will hang on the back of a door (or on a wall) in the house? Keeps it up and away but still something nifty to look at. As Larry pointed out, Mike's Small Track Plan Page does well to show what variety of track plans can be achieved with non-standard track directions and some pretty cool scenic divides. I have played with three of his track plans and all were cool in their own way! Also, consider making somehting you might be open to expanding in the future..... a few spurs heading off edges can do that. The railroads grew by addition, so it's very much "prototype". Have fun, looking forward to seeing what you pinpoint & build!
Not to change the subject, but have you considered Z scale? Amazing detail can be achieved in a very small space. This link can provide inspiration for any scale, but this was done in Z and the owner provides excellent instruction on how to do everything. This is a 15" x 36" Z scale layout. The home page: http://jamesriverbranch.net/ Link to the construction: http://jamesriverbranch.net/construction.htm
I have a nineteenth century pike on a two by four foot. It has a double track loop. The curves on the outer loop are eleven inch radius, nine on the inner. The turnouts on the main lines are number four. The turnouts on the industrial section are the PECO 'matchbook cover' turnouts. The nineteenth century equipment operates well on this, as most nineteenth century freight cars are thirty six feet, or smaller. Fifty and thirty six foot passenger cars are also available in N scale. All of the foregoing equipment will work well on a pike this size. Nineteenth century motive power available in N scale are eight-wheelers, moguls and consolidateds. The Athearn/MDC consolidateds have the two middle pair of drivers blinded to allow smooth operation on sharp curves and turnouts. The Athearn/MDC moguls have the one middle pair blinded. B-mann eight wheelers, MP eight wheelers and moguls and Atlas moguls have no blinded drivers, but all of the preceding will operate on a pike this size. Consider the nineteenth century. You can operate the passenger train through the small town that you want and have the local freight do the switching. The MDC/Athearn power is very good. You will have to buy horsies and waggons instead of cars and trucks, though.
