Scale MPH vs. Scale Speed

sd90ns May 13, 2005

  1. sd90ns

    sd90ns TrainBoard Member

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    Some months ago someone on this forum posted a scale MHP chart.
    I wrote it down and here it is.
    N-Scale. 3 feet at scale speed.
    5mph 65sec
    15mph 22sec
    25mph 13sec
    60mph 5.5sec
    90mph 3.5sec

    I got out my stopwatch the other day and marked off a 3 foot straight section of my mainline. It took a while adjusting the throttle to get a train going at a scale 60mph. Covering the marked yard in 5.5seconds. Fast Passenger.

    It didn’t take long to realize that though it might be running at a prototypical scale “Miles per hour”, it sure didn’t look like it was running at a prototypical scale speed. Get what I’m saying?

    It looked to fast. Way to fast. Warp drive fast. “Scotty I need more power” fast. After much running and timing, I finely decided that a scale mph of around 45mph looked about right for a “Fast” train on my layout.

    This brings up the question. Even though we can scale miles per hour, does speed actually scale? Like volume, I don’t think it does. It’s a perspective thing and I believe it has to do with three things.

    1.How big is the layout? Obviously if you have a huge layout with long straight stretches and broad sweeping curves a fast mph train doesn’t look like it’s “Out running the track”.

    2.How long is the train? If you are running short trains, mine are all 4’ or shorter, then a 60 scale mph train is covering its own length in 10 seconds. It doesn’t take a hyper-physicist to see that a real train (We all like to think our trains are longer than they are) covering its own length in 10 seconds is moving. Longer trains take longer to cover their own length and that will make them appear to be going slower even though they are not.


    3.Scenery or scenes. If your layout is broken up into a bunch of distinct areas or scenes depicting different towns or regions. And these towns or regions are supposed to be miles apart. Then having a train move through a scene that is supposed to be a couple of miles long in just 2 or three seconds, spoils the effect. Likewise having a train move from one scene to another in only a couple of seconds is a real “Buzz kill”.

    I think most of us have noticed that fast model trains look silly. What may surprise you is the train might actually be going at a reasonable scale mph.

    What do you think? Are there other factors that dictate how fast a train appears to be moving? Have you ever timed your trains? What scale mph do you run at? What do you think you’re running at? Finely, how long does it take a train (Running at a speed that appears correct) take to complete a lap of your mainline? I’ll have to get back to you with the answer on that one.
     
  2. Powersteamguy1790

    Powersteamguy1790 Permanently dispatched

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    SD90ns:

    Here is the thread I posted on Trainboard concerning the N scale speed calulator


    N scale speed calculator


    Stay cool and run steam.... [​IMG] :cool: :cool:
     
  3. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman TrainBoard Member

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    I think this is analogus to colors. Smaller scales need lighter colors to appear to be accurate. This is covered in some of the military modelers' literature. The first that comes to mind is the display for Model Masters' Paint.

    IMHO, my small N scale engine crawls at some speed that appears to be 5 mph and appears to be just moving. If my HO scale switcher moves at the same speed, it really appears to be moving slower. It is all an illusion based on the size of the model.

    Still scale speed can be calculated as above, which is not what you asked, I think. [​IMG]
     
  4. Michael Good

    Michael Good TrainBoard Member

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    I have adjusted the CV's on all my engines so that full speed with an average train is about 40-45 MPH. Of course, you don't usually run at FULL speed, so most trains go around 30-35 MPH, and I think that looks prototypical, especially since I'm modeling CP Rail!
     
  5. wig-wag-trains.com

    wig-wag-trains.com Advertiser

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    An N scale train in 4' actual length is the equivalent of a train 640' long in 12":1' scale.

    Passing a point in 10 seconds is not unreasonable. However it is as mentioned above a matter of perception and perspective as well.

    At Vaughn, NM I have stood trackside on the Belen Cutoff many times as BNSF Z-trains have blown by me doing 60 mph(maybe better). They cover the length of the yard in a matter of seconds.
    Just a quarter mile away I've stood by UP trains on the Golden State Route that took days to get thru their yard.

    When it comes to operating model railroads though it's always what makes you feel best. At the show this past weekend one of our club members had his Kato SuperRail Cargo train going around the 32' x32' layout in 70 seconds including the 28' s-curved that was inset into one side of the layout. Man, it looked fast even for a Japanese "bullet" type train. He was happy and it ran flawlessly. I think that works out to almost 90mph actual.
     
  6. beast5420

    beast5420 TrainBoard Member

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    speed scales directly with length (distance). N scale is 1/160 of real size, so the scale speed must be done accordingly. 5 mph is 7.33 ft/s. if you're running at that speed, the distance must be measured in the scale that you are using. 5 scale mph is 7.33 scale ft/s.

    HTH

    beast
     
  7. LongTrain

    LongTrain Passed away October 12, 2005 In Memoriam

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    Even on an NTrack layout that is over 2 scale miles per lap, I still think "scale speed" looks too fast. Our model curves are too sharp, and our model switches have frog numbers not even half what they should be for mainline running in the real world.

    My typical train is 4200 feet (50Ft cars x 80, 40Ft cars x 100), but I have run trains over one scale mile long on the NTrak layout. (133 cars with an ABBA set of LL FA1/FB1s)

    I run them at "drag" speed - 30 scale miles per hour, or less, and it takes over 4 minutes to make one lap. It takes a little less than a minute for a 100 car train of 40 footers to pass any fixed point of reference on the layout.

    In the shot below, the MoPac FA1/FB1 set has 80 cars on the drawbar, mostly 40 footers. The caboose is beyond the yard limit to the South and around a curve on the next module. Notice how sharp the curves and frog angles appear comparted with the prototype?

    [​IMG]

    [ May 16, 2005, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: LongTrain ]
     
  8. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman TrainBoard Member

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    Yes, I do see it. I guess I am used to the model more than the real thing.
     
  9. doofus

    doofus TrainBoard Supporter

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    I think if you were to change your visual perspective, things will look different. If you were to place a video camera at track side level, or even your eyeball for that matter, the speed would seem to be different because the overall spectrum of vision will be reduced allowing you to focus more on the action at hand and not all the static objects surrounding the scene.
     
  10. swdw

    swdw TrainBoard Member

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    Beast is right-Speed does scale with length, s90ns' numbers are correct because he did scale speed w/ length. I ran the necesarry calcs to make sure. So you're both right.

    However a common misconception I've run into (but hasn't been in any of these posts) is that time scales too. This misconception has caused many people to run their trains way too slow because they think they use a fast clock to match the scaling of size. The two are totally separate variables. This is the reason for using a fast clock is to scale the time because you cannot create scale distances equivalent to the actual distance, not because time is scaled.

    For example, the Anaconda to Great Falls run is 179 miles which would require laying over 5,900 feet of N scale track. Moving at a scale 30 mph would take 6 hours either way, but how many people can lay a mile of track in their basement? So you use a fast clock to scale time for the shorter distances you lay. If your mainline was 295 ft, you'd technically need 20:1 fast clock.

    It's all in perception because of the small size. As for how fast to run it, I agree you do what makes you happy. I ran a Northern hauling a reefer on an NTrak layout at a scale 70mph. The kids watching got excited and started following it, while one of the older members gave me a dirty look and made a comment about running too fast compared to real life (he likes his trains to poke along). He misssed the point that the reason I had the train hauling butt was to get the kids interested because I heard one comment about the trains moved so slow and boring on the layouts. Also, at that time there was no other train running on any of the 3 mainline tracks. It worked- the kids got excited following that steamer and had fun!

    When you consider my brother talked to an old GN fireman that told him he'd been on the S-2 Northerns running over 95 mph across the prarie during WWII when hauling fast freights/specials, I was actually well within real life speed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2006
  11. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    On my layout I scale time and space to fit the situation. The main line represents a 3000 (+-) mile rout. Trains could be coming in from any of 10 or so cities. The plan is that one "lap" represents X number of miles traveled so how far the off board city is determines how many laps the train must take..

    The Grey and Grandure, (a point to point shortline), has several areas. I will designate how much time passes in getting from one place to another. Physical speeds will be kept to "visually appropriate.

    I expect it will work for me.
     
  12. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    At train shows where my Ntrak group sets up we run trains at prottypical speeds. Invariably we are asked why the trains are going so slowly. One guy [obviously from the Horribly Oversized crowd] said the engines weren't that powerful and were struggling with the train. When we explained that the 3 trains were actually doing between 25 and 45 scale mph. The "why so slow" comments really come out when one member runs his RDC's at warp 3. I once attended a trainshow where a guy was running a TGV at what he said was prototypical speed. Lots of people were watching it then one boy asked his father, "When is it going to derail?" I think a lot of people were watching just to see that occur. It didn't derail but it would have been spectacular if it did.
     
  13. Ed M

    Ed M Passed away May 2012 In Memoriam

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    I run my trains as slow as I can and still keep them from stalling on my plastic switch frogs. Hey, when your mainline is only a few feet around you need to stretch things out all you can. Plus, I imagine that the trackwork of my freelance branch line is in pretty rugged shape, requiring a pretty low speed limit. (Modeling imitating life, my layout trackwork is far from the best.....)

    A few times I have actually checked the speeds that they are running according to the charts, but in reality I'm more interested that the speed they run at "looks" right to me.

    Regards

    Ed
     
  14. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    What he said. LOL

    i just run them at a speed that feels right to me. Steam engines run at a speed so that if I get my eyeballs down to track level the drive rods look cool moving back and forth. :p

    Mostly I run the trains at speeds so that my layout doesn't seem to small. run em too fast and I get the snake chasing it's tail effect on my oval.
     
  15. Tony Burzio

    Tony Burzio TrainBoard Supporter

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    Good point! You get this effect a lot more in HO scale than in N, but it happens in all scales. I always tease the HO La Mesa club members on their choice of scale. They have a monstrous huge HO layout at the San Diego Model Railroad Museum. Their trains crawl along because of the compression of space. If they would have done their Tehachapi layout in N Scale, they wouldn't have needed any geography compression on their layout! Of course, it would take four hours to get from end to end! :)
     
  16. Pete Nolan

    Pete Nolan TrainBoard Supporter

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    I run freights at a speed that looks correct to me. When I time them, I get speeds of 30-40 smph. They don't look slow to me.
     
  17. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I will run my freights at a speed prototypical for the route I model, that being about 20-25MPH. Using the 'switcher' speed settings on my Digitrax decoders, as Grant-sar does. His freights at max speed run about 30MPH. It looks great seeing a heavy freight on its knees at 15 MPH, and the throttle speed is about 80-90%....
    They speed up more slowly, and they don't overspeed as easily.
    After operating on the sar, I found that those settings will suit me as well.
     
  18. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Hmm, scale speed with my bullet on my layout would not be pretty. I do intend to bank my mainline curves but in my best James Doohan aka ‘Scotty’ voice, Capn’ ya can na fight the laws of physics
     
  19. Pete Nolan

    Pete Nolan TrainBoard Supporter

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    Whose laws of physics? Why does the Enterprise make noise in a vacuum? Because silence is deadly on TV. Why did the scriptwriters note Insert techno-babble here in their scripts? Because few of them, outside of a 19-year-old female writer, knew a darn thing about physics.

    I always laugh when I see a show with Doohan's protests!
     
  20. Rob de Rebel

    Rob de Rebel Permanently dispatched

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    The problem with viewing N scale models moving at scale speeds or mph is that most people do not get UP CLOSE to the models when they are moving. The speed then would "look" more realistic... If you could miniaturize yourself and walk the actual distance in scale
    then the "appearance issues" would go away.

    Rob
     

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