Proto Switching Puzzle/Question

slynch Jun 24, 2001

  1. slynch

    slynch E-Mail Bounces

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  2. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    KEWL! I love switching puzzles - am I correct in my assumption that the loco is three car lengths? I assume normal rules like you have to stop to couple and uncouple - is this correct? I have not looked at your 50+ move page as I want to try my own ideas first [​IMG]

    PS - how big is the runaround track at A and C?

    And who left that box car on the main :eek:

    [ 24 June 2001: Message edited by: yankinoz ]
     
  3. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    I did it in 45 on the train ride to work this morning. I reckon I can get that closer to 40 or below with a little creativity [​IMG] I can also take of two moves if you can tell me that the two empty hoppers and the two boxes at the lumber yard are already coupled together.

    Should we move this to the Pit?
     
  4. slynch

    slynch E-Mail Bounces

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    yankinoz: The runaround in real life can handle 20+ 40' boxcars. The engine length is not a problem then either. Oyster bay is stub end of line of this LIRR branch. So the boxcar on main was spotted by the freight house for a load of LCL stuff.

    Yes the cars are coupled on the sidings as requested. Just bump them together counts as one move!

    So far 35 moves submitted. Anyone with proto or modeling time to do this? Thanks guys.
    Best,
    Stevelynch
    www.NyandW.com
     
  5. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    Sooo - since this is the end of the line - I need to have my caboose on the west end of my choo-choo... hmmmm that might actually make things easier. I'll let ya know after my train ride home. :D
     
  6. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    31 moves and my train is ready to head out the way it came. - I think I might be able to shave a few off yet.

    But - to answer your question on how long would this take in real life. That's hard to say.

    Bruce Chubb sights an informal study John Allen did on prototype switching and he figures that most of the prototype time is spent coupling and uncoupling, connecting air hoses, and walking to on end of the train or another. On average John reckoned about 10 minutes per move was about average - that means my 31 move solution would take over 5 hours.

    But - the way I did it is probably not they way the prototype would. I gave no attention to where brakemen would be standing to uncouple cars or throw switches. I also ignored if there were any caboose movement restrictions (at one point I am pushing 5 cars in front of the caboose – I’m not sure if that’s legal)

    In real life, these are things that are thought about – times when five short moves could be faster than the 1 super clever move you can come up with when you think about it for a while.
     
  7. StickyMonk

    StickyMonk TrainBoard Member

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    <font color="336633">I have moved this to the Pit as its proberly the best place for it [​IMG]</font>
     
  8. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    duplicate

    [ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: yankinoz ]
     
  9. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    Steve has updated the original puzzle - turns out that track B only holds the loco plus one car. Well my 31 move solution would have shoved 6 cars off the end of that track and into the ash pit. (I guess this means I would have "finished" in 14 moves)

    So - this change cost me 6 moves and I am now at 37 after this morning's train ride [​IMG] I'll let ya'll know how I do on the return trip home. Got a couple of ideas...

    [ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: yankinoz ]
     
  10. rsn48

    rsn48 TrainBoard Member

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    Rob,
    If the caboose was a steel caboose, then it might have had that many cars in front of it...but to be honest, I'm not sure.
     
  11. yankinoz

    yankinoz TrainBoard Member

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    The only thing I am sure of is that helper engines can't push trains with a caboose in-between the helper and the train - but I don't think this is universal.

    Anyway - the best I have come up with under the restricted B length is 33 moves.

    What I am finding interesting is that the more I think about reducing the number of moves, the more I am introducing moves that would take a long time in the prototype world.

    For example - I start by picking up the two empties at the Coal Co with the whole train, then back into the Shipyard at the other end of Oyster Bay to pickup a box car, then pull clear over to the Freight Station (that I just passed) to drop off the MT hoppers. This involves throwing switches and either end of the train and the switches aren't even close to one another. I would suspect in real life the crew would drop the caboose at the Shipyard switch, do the easy trailing point moves at the shipyard, then pull the whole train into A and do the runaround, then do the rest of the switching in such a way that they are only working one or two switches at a time - this would mean many 'wasted' moves from a switch puzzle point of view, but from a real life time saver standpoint the less time the crew spend walking the better for everyone [​IMG]

    I looked at your 53 move page - this is probably one of the fastest ways for a real train to do it - but for the least number of moves - I can't find a way to better 33 - I can come up with a lot of various ways to get 33 however [​IMG]

    The same John Allen informal study figured 60 - 100 seconds per switching move for models. Since I have a few hours getting 45 moves down to 33 you could probibly figure an operator who is vary familiar with this area could do under 40 moves and be close to that one minute per move time, but a crew working it for the first time will probibly be more like 1 1/2 hours(100seconds * 50 moves is 5000 seconds or 83 minutes) If it were me - it would take me 2 hours cuz I'll just stare at the thing for 20 minutes trying to figure out the 'best' way :rolleyes:

    BTW Steve - the 33 moves I sent you, there is a (second) typo - move 24. I am happy to post my 33 moves here, but maybe someone else wants to have a go first.

    [ 26 June 2001: Message edited by: yankinoz ]
     
  12. slynch

    slynch E-Mail Bounces

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    Thanks for all the interest guys! 31 moves (not verified) at:
    http://www.nyandw.com/images/31moves.gif

    Rob points out the time to switch this. Add about 5 minutes for air pressure tests, line connections, etc and with a 6:1 clock perhaps this is a 2.5+ hour project especially with clearing the main for pass/commuter arrivals.

    Seems it might keep the local crew busy for the 3 hour evening. Those that operate please advise. Thank you.
    Best,

    Steve Lynch
    ww.NyandW.com
     

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