Picking points on the OTHER side of a Kato #4 Turnout

Maletrain Jan 24, 2015

  1. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    I recently had my first problemwith point-picking in a Kato #4 turnout. I searched here and with Google to find a solution. But, everything I found relates to filling arecess on the STRAIGHT rail.
    My problem is on the CURVEDside. When approached from a 13.75” radiuscurve with the turnout aligned for straight-through, the pilot wheel of my KatoMikado (and some other engines and cars) jumps the point and heads down the curve, stoppingthe engine.
    I previously had a track planwith this arrangement in 2 separate locations, and never experienced thisproblem there. I since bought someadditional #4s, so I am not sure if this particular turnout has operated in thisconfiguration without problem or not.
    The fixes I have found nearly allsay to pull the straight rail out of theturnout a ways to file the recess. I amalready leery of doing that for fear that I will damage some internal electricalpickup used for the power routing feature. Pulling out the curved rail was never discussed in what I saw, and seemslike it would be more difficult and potentially destructive.
    One of the comments to a previousthread said that the commenter had made a recess in the straight rail withoutpulling it out by using a Dremel tool with a diamond bit. Perhaps that is anapproach I shoud use on the curved side?
    I am looking for advice andwarnings to help me figure out what to do with this turnout. Have any of you recessed a curved rail? Have any of you created problems with a Kato#4 by doing pulling out the rail to file the indentations?
     
  2. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    I am unsure, from your post, where the problem lies. As I read it, you state, initially, that the problem occurs when the points are aligned for diverging . Then, you state that when the points are aligned for main, the 2-8-2 pilot derails. Which one is it?

    Funny, I have no problems with Kato power on the #4s; it is other power, especially LL, that picks the points. I have more problem with rolling stock's picking the points than anything, especially MT four wheel freight or six wheel passenger. MT four wheel passenger is no problem. I have never tried cutting out the recess. I have replaced a number of the #4s with #6s. The #6s have no problem.
     
  3. arbomambo

    arbomambo TrainBoard Member

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  4. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    Brokmoto,

    What I am trying to say is that the pilot wheels jump and take the curved route when the turnout is aligned for straight-through. So, the place where the recess would need to be filed is on the curved rail, rather than the straight rail that is addressed by all of the posts that I could find with a search.
     
  5. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    Arbomambo, I already found that youtube clip. It does say to file both rails, but only showes the straight rail being pulled out and altered. Presumably he did the same thing with the curved rail? Still wondering if there is any latent electrical problem that showes up later when the rails are pulled and returned.
     
  6. arbomambo

    arbomambo TrainBoard Member

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    That's my work and video...I filed both rails...and actually, the one I showed is the rail that causes the point to be aligned for the diverging route. The moveable point rail sits in the notch that I showed...if the switch is thrown for the main track, the point rail is aligned on the other side. I filed a notch in that one as well...I just didn't show it for brevity.
    There are no electrical issues after mods. Remember, and to be clear...only the insides of the stock rails, one that continues 'straight', and one that curves, are filed and notched...the moveable point rails, whether they are aligned for the straight (mainline) or the curved (diverging route) aren't altered in anyway, EXCEPT to have the squared top tip of the ends filed to a curved shape
    ~Bruce
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
  7. arbomambo

    arbomambo TrainBoard Member

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    Here is a pic with circles showing where I hit the tops of the ends of the point rails with a needle file to take the square of the top and give the tops a more round angle.
    The arrow shows the pencil mark I made on the other stock rail to mark where I was going to file a notch on the inside of that rail (I did file that notch as well...so, again, the point rails (the rails that move and select the route) fit and recess into either notch on the stock rails.
    ~Bruce

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

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    Maletrain, are you sure the pilot wheels are wide enough in gauge? If a wheel is getting inside the curved point rail when the switch is set for straght, it suggests that the gauge is too narrow.

    Doug
     
  9. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    Doug,

    Yes, I checked gauge on all the wheels that jumped. They were all in spec.

    Everybody<

    I don't understsand why I have not been clear enough in my description to avoid some of the questioning comments. Again, the turnout is aligned STRAIGHT and approached from a 13.75" radius curve that is curving in the same direction as the curved path of the turnout. The pilot wheels jump the points that are against the curved rail and follow the curve while the drivers don't jump the points and go straight, jamming the engine in the switch and stopping it cold. So, the notch I need to file to prevent this is in the CURVED rail. What seems strange to me is that the wheels are jumping points on the INSIDE of the curve, and I am guessing that has something to do with the curve radius changing from 13.75" to a larger radius (either 19" for the curved path of the turnout or ∞" for the straight path throught the turnout).

    Bruce,

    Thanks for the clarifications and additional pictures. It is nice to be able to talk to people who have actually done the mod. The electrical issues that I am concerned about come from me thinking that the track power that goes into the switch must come from the rails that I am pulling out and pushing back, supplied to them by other track sections through the rail joiners at the ends of those rails. There must be some sort of contacts inside the mechanism to get the power to "route" one way or the other as the switch is thrown. Do you know how those contacts are made inside? Are they simply spring contacts, or are they soldered such that the solder joint is broken when the rails are pulled out, leaving only some sort of pressure contact connection when they are returned to their proper positions?

    Steve
     
  10. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    Doug,

    Yes, I checked gauge on all the wheels that jumped. They were all in spec.

    Everybody,

    I don't understsand why I have not been clear enough in my description to avoid some of the questioning comments. Again, the turnout is aligned STRAIGHT and approached from a 13.75" radius curve that is curving in the same direction as the curved path of the turnout. The pilot wheels jump the points that are against the curved rail and follow the curve while the drivers don't jump the points and go straight, jamming the engine in the switch and stopping it cold. So, the notch I need to file to prevent this is in the CURVED rail. What seems strange to me is that the wheels are jumping points on the INSIDE of the curve, and I am guessing that has something to do with the curve radius changing from 13.75" to a larger radius (either 19" for the curved path of the turnout or ∞" for the straight path throught the turnout).

    Bruce,

    Thanks for the clarifications and additional pictures. It is nice to be able to talk to people who have actually done the mod. The electrical issues that I am concerned about come from me thinking that the track power that goes into the switch must come from the rails that I am pulling out and pushing back, supplied to them by other track sections through the rail joiners at the ends of those rails. There must be some sort of contacts inside the mechanism to get the power to "route" one way or the other as the switch is thrown. Do you know how those contacts are made inside? Are they simply spring contacts, or are they soldered such that the solder joint is broken when the rails are pulled out, leaving only some sort of pressure contact connection when they are returned to their proper positions?

    Steve
     
  11. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    Doug,

    Yes, I checked gauge on all the wheels that jumped. They were all in spec.

    Everybody,

    I don't understsand why I have not been clear enough in my description to avoid some of the questioning comments. Again, the turnout is aligned STRAIGHT and approached from a 13.75" radius curve that is curving in the same direction as the curved path of the turnout. The pilot wheels jump the points that are against the curved rail and follow the curve while the drivers don't jump the points and go straight, jamming the engine in the switch and stopping it cold. So, the notch I need to file to prevent this is in the CURVED rail. What seems strange to me is that the wheels are jumping points on the INSIDE of the curve, and I am guessing that has something to do with the curve radius changing from 13.75" to a larger radius (either 19" for the curved path of the turnout or [infinity]" for the straight path throught the turnout).

    Bruce,

    Thanks for the clarifications and additional pictures. It is nice to be able to talk to people who have actually done the mod. The electrical issues that I am concerned about come from me thinking that the track power that goes into the switch must come from the rails that I am pulling out and pushing back, supplied to them by other track sections through the rail joiners at the ends of those rails. There must be some sort of contacts inside the mechanism to get the power to "route" one way or the other as the switch is thrown. Do you know how those contacts are made inside? Are they simply spring contacts, or are they soldered such that the solder joint is broken when the rails are pulled out, leaving only some sort of pressure contact connection when they are returned to their proper positions?

    Steve
     
  12. gatrhumpy

    gatrhumpy TrainBoard Member

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    Post a picture or a video, and then you'll be crystal clear.
     
  13. Maletrain

    Maletrain TrainBoard Member

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    Sorry about the 3 identical posts. The website kept displaying "data error" and coming back to my "post quick reply" screen. Eventually I signed off and tried to sign back on to see if that helped, but could only get "data error" to come-up instead of the usual N-scale page. I logged in this morning to attempt to post that message again. Glad I checked before I posted again, or there would have been 4 copies. Hoping the moderators can cut 2 of the 3 posts, and this one).
     
  14. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    I had the same problem when I had N scale steam I soon discovered that pilot trucks like to stay aligned to a curve coming out of a curve. I never was able to fix the issue, but I found that all of my diesels were fine; granted I was using Atlas c55. But I think what you are describing is the same problem I had. A right hand curve running into facing points on a right hand switch would make my loco think it needed to keep turning and jump the rails.

    But I did have a lot of problems with my diesels at first. I checked wheel gauges and everything lined up to my borrowed NMRA gauge. So I was at this point of wanting to destroy everything, not just the layout. I had just built a double track layout with something like 23 switches.

    Eventually what I had to do was get my eye down to track level and watch where things were going wrong. It turned out that my loco wheels were under gauge by the tinniest amount. It took a lot of testing with hand rolling locos through turnouts and also just running them. I was already sure I had found my problem, so I took a loco and turned it upside down and ran a loose switch over the wheels just to be sure. And again same problem.

    -In N scale too small an alignment can be as tiny as the thickness of a piece of paper. So your eye cannot see it with a NMRA wheel gauge. You have to see it in action with actual track.

    -Before you go doing track mods check your wheels.

    -If the truck is picking the open point it's likely you are under-gauge as the wheel should not be able to pick it if it is the correct width.

    -The switch you mention may not be completely level. Or the curves you made may be kinked at the switch. Check that as well if it is just one location on your layout.

    My advice is to try changing the wheel gauge on the pilot truck ever so slightly. Try it wider, then try it smaller, if that does not work. Use the upside down with piece of track to see how the gauge of the pilot is. I would also hold it over my face looking up through the track, but that is not possible with unitrack.

    As to the NMRA wheel gauge I have never owned one. I simply use actual pieces of track as gauges now and it never fails.

    Another thing I just thought is that maybe the pilot truck is not loose enough in it's side to side play. You may check that too.
     
  15. u18b

    u18b TrainBoard Supporter

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    No one has said this yet..... but one of the railroading priciples that makes for more reliable track is to ALWAYS attempt have a straight section right in front of a turnout. The straight piece lines up everything just before the loco heads into the turnout.

    If you can make this adjustment, it might help you out.

    But also know, that the problem you are describing is not a rare thing.
    So if you KNOW this can be a problem, you modify your track planning to try to avoid turnouts connecting to curves.
     
  16. Burlington Northern Fan

    Burlington Northern Fan TrainBoard Supporter

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  17. silentargus

    silentargus TrainBoard Member

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    You said that you have the most trouble with your steamers' pilot trucks... are they sprung? It sounds silly, but it might just solve your problem- the pilot truck does not have the weight to keep itself on the rails when faced with even the slightest bump, so it needs a spring to hold it down. Not so strong as to lift up the whole front of the engine, just enough to ensure that the wheels remain on track- and since the tread is sloped, a little bit of downward pressure will also keep the truck centered, which could prevent the flanges from picking the points as you describe. I had the same issue with my Bachmann 2-8-0s on Kato #4 turnouts, and the simple expedient of a few spare coupler springs resolved it for both engines. If there's no easy way to add a spring, then you can attach a weight to the pilot truck with some CA to achieve the same effect.

    For your rolling stock, adding a small amount of weight can help, for the same reasons. Also, if you haven't done so already, consider switching to metal wheelsets as they track better.
     
  18. arbomambo

    arbomambo TrainBoard Member

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    Steve,
    No soldered joins on either of the rails that need to be moved or altered...in fact, I believe the only electrical connections are to the frog and inside rails on the other side of the frog. If there is a electric connection to the rails that need to be moved and filed, it may be in one of the clips/grooves that serve to help keep the rail in place. You're safe in sliding the two rails...just be sure to be careful when you slide the rail back into place, it is weaker at the point where the notch is filed simply because part of the web of the rail has been removed.
    This is a mod that I will perform on every turnout that isn't already so manufactured- Kato ot otherwise.- Bruce
     
  19. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    I'm with u18b on this. I had similar problems and decided I would either need to re do all my track, or get rid of my steam engines. But still I think it's something to do with the gauge of the wheels on the pilots. :)
     
  20. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

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    One thing you can do like the prototype is put a guard rail along the left rail (I'm assuming this is a right turn situation) right before the points. This forces the opposite pilot wheel over to keep it against the straight rail and keeps the loco pilot from trying to go the curved route.

    It's possible that the opposite pilot wheel is picking the other point rail and going inside it.

    Doug
     

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