Here are some images of Italian locos etc taken on a recent long weekend trip to Monterosso (one of the 5 Terre villages near La Spezia). The pictures are not very high resolution but they are all "stop action" frames from videos and in the circumstances I think they are not too bad. These images have been put in an album on Zing and pasted in from there. Ben
Nice photos Ben. It's always good to see some European content on Trainboard and the Italian locos really have a unique character. Let's have more !! By the way.....Are you a member of the Italian Railways Society ? John.
Thanks for your comments John; no, I am not a member of the IRS; I have to be careful to monitor society memberships carefully, otherwise they (and the annual subs!) tend to snowball. There has got to be a very good reason for me to join any particular society and as it is not very likely that I will be making another trip to Italy in the near future, there might not be very much point in joining. However, if joining would make it easier to get hold of n scale models of Italian prototypes, then that might be another matter..... Do you know what activities the Italian R S gets involved in? Ben NB I'll post some more stills of the same trains in the next few days. [ 29 March 2001: Message edited by: Ben ]
Hi Ben, Apart from brief excursions into Italy from my normal Swiss haunts I have only ever visited the country once. About a year ago I was invited to join the IRS by Gerald Lambourn, their magazine editor, so I thought I would give it a try especially as the annual sub was only £10. I was pleasantly surprised, the quarterly magazine although "home produced" is full of news items and features and is really informative..... I definitely know a great deal more about Italian Railways than I did 12 months ago. On the modelling scene there appears to be quite a leaning towards N-scale although from what I can gather there is not a great selection of stock available. The society is also well respected in Italy by both the railway companies and model dealers and "Binari" (the magazine) carries ads for some Italian model shops. If you think membership could be useful and would like to know more just drop me a line outside of Trainboard. Best wishes John.
Ben, thanks for posting the pics. There are some very interesting looking Italian locomotives I will be going on holiday to Italy again at the end of May, but don't expect to see many trains, except the Circumvesuviana narrow gauge line, which we will take from Sorrento to Pompeii. On your photos, I noticed they were loading very slowly, so I checked the file sizes, and found they were very large (around 300 k). Do you have any programmes to reduce the file size to around 70-80 k? This would greatly reduce download times. Do you have any more Italian pics to post? Would love to see them.
Dear Alan - thanks. Yes I can edit the pictures before posting and make them smaller but I thought that the larger they are, the more exciting. It only takes a few seconds more to load up. I think I have featured every train I filmed on the holiday but I will look through the video again and try to choose the optimum moment to acquire the image. John Whitby is strongly tempting me to join the IRS and I think I will get some more information from him. Ben
Ben, I don't mean reducing the actual size of the photos, but the file size, in k/bytes. I use Paintshop Pro5, but there are lots of photo software which will do the trick. I would think you will have one on your machine. Makes a huge difference in loading time.
Ben, those are nice images. What voltage and frequency does the Italian electric rail system use? It's interesting to note the large cooling(?) air grill areas relative to carbody size. Do you have any idea what the KW ratings of each locomotives might be? The grill area suggests high heat dissipation from the converter/controller electronics, which would indicate fairly high KW ratings Thanks, Hank [ 30 March 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
Whoa....whoa, time out, Greenbay! Hank, you are goin' in there way over my head technically; I've no idea what the answers to your questions are but if you log on to the Italian Railfans Association (IRA) you may be able to find someone who speaks English and can help you. Alan, you are also a bit technically advanced for me; I will try what you say but in the meantime I am now posting two or three more photos which are smaller than the first lot; they are really alternative shots of two of the originals plus the driving cab end of one of the local push pulls which on this occasion was being pushed by an E656 bendy electric. Finally Alan, my daughter is in a couple of weeks going on a school trip to Sorrento and visiting Pompeii, Herculaneum, Vesuvius etc; I'd never heard of the Circumvesuviana until you mentioned it but I will now ask her to look out for it and either take a snap or buy me a postcard. Can you tell me any more about it (e.g. how long is the line, what is the motive power, is it purely a tourist line, when was it built, etc etc)? Thanks, Ben
Hi Hank, I am no more technically minded than Ben but I have a book in front of me !!! The Italian State Railways (FS) use a voltage of 3000 v.DC. Because adjacent countries (e.g. Austria, Switzerland )generally use 15 kV 16.7 Hz AC, international trains usually have to change locos at the border although the current trend (excuse the pun) is to build locos/multiple units that can work on both systems. The top two locos in Bens photos, classes E402 and E656 have ratings of 5000 kW and 4200 kW. Hope this helps. Best wishes, John.
Ben, here is a Circumvesuviana train They run from Sorrento to Napoli, I think, plus another line, but can't remember where. They are metre gauge, I think. [ 31 March 2001: Message edited by: Alan ]
John, thanks for the reply. Your info probably explains the large grill areas. First - The horsepower for those locos are approximately 6700 (E402) and 5630 (E656), which makes for some "healthy" locomotives . Second - It is easier to control electric power (1200-1500 Amps) when it is AC. But most traction motors have been DC, at least up until the last five years or so. So the AC out of the controllers must be converted to DC before it is sent to the motors, and this creates a bunch of heat which must be exhausted by fans and grills. Now, the Italians run DC on the overhead which must be converted to AC before it can be controlled. This creates the same amount of heat as when the AC is converted back to DC. In other words, electric locos on DC railroads give off almost twice as much heat as the same horsepower electric locos on AC railroads. Hence, bigger fans and grills. Ben, thanks again for the photos, Hank [ 31 March 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ] [ 31 March 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ] [ 31 March 2001: Message edited by: Hank Coolidge ]
Ben, Thanks for starting this thread. It's good to have a decent discussion going on the European section. Hank, Thanks also to you for explaining the characteristics of AC and DC control in a language that we can understand. Having experts on hand is one of the great things about Trainboard. Sorry to deviate slightly from Ben's original posting but I have added some photos that illustrate the problems encountered at the Italian border stations with the change from AC to DC supply. This photo shows an Italian loco removing two Austrian (OBB)locos from a freight train at Brenner on the Austrian/Italian border. At the time the shot was taken it was the standard practice for the Austrian (15 kV ac) locos to drop their pantographs before "rolling" into the Italian 3000 vdc section. The Italian loco would then haul them onto a different track and give them a hefty push so that they "rolled back" into Austria. (Not an April Fools joke I promise) This photo shows a Swiss (FFS) multi-voltage shunting loco at Chiasso. The extra cooling equipment on the bonnet illustrates Hank's point about the extra heat generated by DC systems. This photo shows an alternative method of moving Italian DC locos at border stations.This Swiss diesel shunter is again at Chiasso on the Swiss/Italian border. The old generation of multi-voltage AC/DC trains. This Swiss owned "Grey Mouse" unit was built to operate on Trans Europe Express services throughout most of western/southern Europe. The train in the photo is working between Zurich and Milan. They are now withdrawn from service and have been replaced by the Cisalpino and French TGV trains on international routes which enter Switzerland. A modern multi-system Cisalpino tilting train that can operate on 15kv AC and 3000 DC. These trains are owned by the Swiss and Italian railways and travel between Germany-Switzerland-Italy. Best wishes John. [ 01 April 2001: Message edited by: John Whitby ]
John, those are great photos!!! I sure wish I lived in, or could regularly visit, Europe where trains, especially passenger, are appreciated and are a way of daily life There was a location in the US many(!) years back where two electric railroads of dissimilar power met. As I remember, the engineer of an incoming loco dropped the pantograph as he approached the "dead zone", and coasted to a stop in the new territory. He then walked back into the "control area" of the loco and physically transferred a series of switches to convert the control system to the new power. He then walked back into the cab, raised the pantograph, and continued on his way. Crude, but effective Please don't ask me the name of the railroad(s), or the location .... I suffer from a SEVERE Senior Moments!!! Thanks again, Hank
Thanks to all three of you for your comments and replies; John, those photos are fantastic and they provide the answer to the question (how do loco changes take place at cross border/voltage change locations) I was mulling over while enjoying my Sunday lie in this morning (yes, for rail enthusiasts railway activities (or thinking about them) do indeed sometimes (but by no means always!) replace other more "normal" bedroom activities!). Hank, I endorse John's thanks for and comments on the really interesting information about electric locos; it makes me realize that even after 45 or so years of enthusiasm I really am extremely ignorant and also that there are some very expert, informed, helpful and nice people on Trainboard. Alan, thanks for the Circumvesuviana picture; I am providing my daughter with a printout of it so she can do some "proxy" railfanning for me while she is out there. I haven't got any more foreign trips planned at present, but next time I go across or under the channel I will do my best to get some more rail photos, even if only at Calais or Boulogne. Ben NB The last bit of my holiday video was shot through the window of Eurostar as it started off from Paris and covered the first few miles down to the World Cup football stadium (complete with bilingual airline style commentary from the "train manager" (ticket collector to us older enthusiasts)); I haven't featured any of this in my postings (a) because it isn't Italian and (b) because the quality is "iffy" (lots of reflection from the window I was shooting through) but we did pass a few French locos and multiple units and I will take another look at the footage and see if there is anything remotely worth shewing. Also, interesting to get the American perspective from Hank on European railways; most of the time we in Europe are yearning for the chance to see the fantastic sights available on American railroads and taking what we have on our own doorstep rather for granted but Hank's comments are a salutory reminder that one should be aware of and appreciate everything one has in case it changes or, worse, disappears! [ 01 April 2001: Message edited by: Ben ] [ 01 April 2001: Message edited by: Ben ]
Alan, my e-mail addresses are: ben.cripps@vizzavi.net and ben_cripps@lineone.net Thanks for trying; if you have a chance to try again, lets hope it gets through. Ben
