Peco electrofrog turnouts on a DC layout

videobruce Dec 19, 2019

  1. videobruce

    videobruce TrainBoard Member

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    I'm using Peco non insulated turnouts (electro-frog I think they call them) and have run into a problem that I seemed to overlooked, or at least didn't fully think it out. [​IMG] This is fro DC operation.

    I have a 10 track hump yard with 9 turnouts. Three of which I did use insulated joiners on both frog rails, but for some unknown reason the other six I did not, or at least, only one of the two rails.

    Taking my handy Dremel motor tool, I cut the rails that weren't insulated, but I also included the ones on the 1st turnout into the 'bowl' which I now realize I shouldn't. [​IMG] Each of the 10 class tracks are fed with a power feed for both rails. The 'hump' (lead) track is also fed with a power lead.
    After jumping those two gaps on that 1st turnout (left side of the attachment), will that power up all the turnouts based on how they are lined? IOW's if the lineup is for the 1st track (top of the pic) will that route have power thru the turnouts?

    (The attachment was done with templates, not the actual turnouts. A few of those curves were paper templates cut from turnouts, since I didn't have any curved templates when I designed this )
     

    Attached Files:

  2. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Electrofrog switches means the frog is hot all the time. Without a doubt, my favorite Peco Switches. These switches are power routed switches with the power coming through the points. You may experience shorts with current going out on the diverging/curved/(where the track splits) side of the switch.

    The key here is don't mess with the switch. You will need to isolate the two inside rails and I would suggest both sets of track rails, following the switch. This is the quickest resolution.

    You can have these in a ladder as illustrated by your picture. It's on the rails that leave the switch to make a siding or spur that you will need to isolate the rails. Either plastic rail joiners (I don't recommend they will dry out and twist) or cutting in your isolation gaps.

    May I suggest you go to the Peco Website to find illustrations. Also, check out the instructions that comes with the switches.

    I hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
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  3. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Electrofrog switches:

    Nothing like my first flub-up of the day. The video I choose to illustrate my resolution isn't what I thought it was. The following video illustrates things you need to know but the solution he presents isn't something I would recommend. Remember I said don't mess with the switch. Well, he does. However, his resolution is a far better one then some you will see.

    There are all kinds of videos on how to hard wire in your Peco Switches. I'd ignore them for now. In the hands of an inexperienced modeler it can spell certain doom for your switches. You can ask me how I know.

    Still what you can learn about Peco Switches in this video will help you in the long run.



    It isn't until the end he talks about Isolating the rails but passes it over as though he missed the obvious. I know shame on me for dogging him. Let's face it you need to know.

    I hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  4. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    I use Peco Electrofrogs for power routing throughout my layout, eliminating the need for a control panel. I gapped and end-fed all lines that were double-ended, such as passing sidings and yard tracks. I have not modified any switch, used each as delivered, and have had no problems.

    The nice thing about this arrangement is that the loco will stop abruptly if I forgot to throw the opposite switch.
     
  5. videobruce

    videobruce TrainBoard Member

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    I am reasonably familiar with this style of turnout regarding the frog. Sometimes you have to think it out a 2nd time (or more) due to a more complex situation, in this case multiple turnouts together in a short distance.
    I wanted to plan for DCC in the possible future so I played it safe and insulated both rails between every block, feeding them with both the common & the hot. Other then this situation, I only had two areas that I reversed the feeds (causing a dead short like I had here) which I corrected.
    Here, the section was not powered yet as it is the yard and I wanted to concentrate on the mains first (double track w/ sidings).

    Funny thing was, the day before I re-thought about the bowl ladder and how I insulated the rails (which was several years ago, it's been in mothballs) or if I actually did.
    I have a few stub end tracks that I didn't bother insulating either rail (no need to). The 'class' tracks (10) are all stub end and I have no plans or need to park power on any. I can 'kill' the entire class yard with a single SPST toggle if needed.

    I looked into the two types of frogs nine years ago when I started this project (my 2nd actual model RR) and choose this style. My previous track was Atlas with their 'plastic' frog which I wanted to stay away from. I haven't made any loco tests since the track needs to be cleaned and treated with NOOX which is another separate project. :(
     
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  6. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Sounds to me you are on the right track. Is that a pun? Anyway, you can ladder these together (no need to isolate between them) and they will work fine together. It's coming off the switch on the diverging end. you need to isolate.

    You'll figure it out.
     
  7. videobruce

    videobruce TrainBoard Member

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    School of hard knocks......... :oops:
     
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  8. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Isn't that the truth.
     
  9. jdcolombo

    jdcolombo TrainBoard Member

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    OK. If you feed power from "behind" the first turnout in the ladder, and DO NOT feed power to any other turnout in the ladder, do not insulate the frogs on any of the switches inside the ladder, but DO insulate both rails of the frogs on the LAST switch(es) before the yard tracks, then feed the yard tracks, everything should work. Peco electrofrogs are power-routing. So take your diagram. If you are feeding power from the back end of switch 1, then when that switch is thrown for the curved (left) track, it will feed power to the next switch up on the outside, but will kill power to the next switch on the right. If the next switch on the outside is thrown for the left, then it will feed power to the NEXT switch, and so forth. But you cannot "back feed" - that is, feed power in front of the frog. So that is why you must insulate the frog (both tracks out of the frog) on the LAST switch before the actual yard storage tracks, if you are going to be feeding power to those tracks. That will prevent power from back-feeding into the frog and causing a short.

    Now, if you have already insulated (gapped) the frogs on ALL the yard turnouts, then you will have to feed power to EACH turnout on the outside rails (stock rails) of EACH turnout. That's because by insulating the frog of turnout 1, you have no power going to turnout 2 on the rail of turnout 2 that is attached to the frog of turnout 1. And on it goes. So you will have to feed power to each outside rail of each turnout that is connected to the frog of the previous turnout. But I find it easier in this case to simply feed power to each outside rail.

    Note that the second way to wire the ladder is actually better, because you are not depending on the points of the previous turnout to feed power to the next turnout. But it requires a lot more wiring.

    And remember that EITHER WAY, you MUST insulate the frogs (both rails) of the LAST turnout before your yard tracks (if you are feeding power to those tracks. Just remember: you cannot "back feed" power into a frog of Peco Electrofrog. You can feed power from behind the frog, but not in front of the frog. If power is fed to a track in front of a frog, you must insulate both rails of the frog to prevent shorts.
     
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  10. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Colombo, I had a hard time following you. I had to back track a number of times to get the point. Kind of hard to write a verbal picture. I wish there was a simpler way to say that.

    What you've pointed out is valid. Best part about it, it will work.
     
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  11. jdcolombo

    jdcolombo TrainBoard Member

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    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    Unfortunately, I don't have one that properly illustrates the point.

    John C.
     
  12. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Colombo, Neither do I at the moment.
    I had it very well illustrated on BarstowRick.com but it had security issues and basically the servor hi-jacked it.
    Looks like the OP - VideoBruce is headed in the right direction.
     
  13. NtheBasement

    NtheBasement TrainBoard Member

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    I believe the suggested solution is as follows: gap all the stub rails after the last frogs (not on the first turnouts that have turnouts "after" them. Add feeders to the two outer rails of the first switch, and add feeders to every stub rail. Picture worth a few words at least:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qA1FMO_zHrRzlPOCb0GnzO5So13-DVSP/view?usp=sharing
    [​IMG]
    Not sure if inserting the image worked... in which case use the link.

    The above solution requires feeding the two outer rails so the turnouts rely on contacts from the points, and also feeding each of the stub rails. Advantage of this is any voltage drop out to the ends of the stubs is solved by feeders. Disadvantages are you cannot park DC locos on the stubs unless you add a separate switch for each stub to cut/supply power to one of it's rails, and relies on points for contact in the switch section of the yard.
    Pretty sure the Original Poster has mistakenly also gapped at the red lines. These can be soldered back together - ungapped.

    Solution 2 is no gaps anywhere. Just feed the two outer rails, rely on points to supply the stubs. Advantage is you can park DC locomotives on the stubs and only the currently switched stub will get that block's power. Disadvantage is the voltage may drop off toward the ends of the stubs, and relies on points for contact. This is what I did on my previous layout.

    Solution 3 is throw each turnout with an SPDT or SPDT-containing switch machine, gap all the frog rails, wire each SPDT to supply power to that turnout's frog rails, and drop feeders from the stub rails as needed. Advantage: super reliable because it doesn't rely on the points for electrical contact. Disadvantage: pita to install, still no way to cut power to a stub track for DC locos. This solution is the one I use on my current layout. Just to be clear, the red lines on the first (leftmost) turnout are gapping the frog rails of that turnout.

    Hope this helps instead of confuses.
     

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