Open letter to Bachmann

skipgear Aug 21, 2009

  1. gunner

    gunner TrainBoard Member

    104
    0
    15
    So if this is an accident, manufacturing snafu, etc... Why does thier online description still state 5 pole skew wound motor?

    It's obvious that they know of the issue. And have known about it for a while.

    They seem to want us to buy a misrepresented product. I would have made the appropriate edits to descriptions on my company provided information and putting out bulletins to vendors to ensure the customer was provided correct information.

    Bob
     
  2. Puddington

    Puddington Passed away May 21, 2016 In Memoriam

    578
    39
    17
    Tony - thanks for your balanced approach to this issue. I have a number of Bachmann products; specifically a small fleet of their Canadian Pacific specific H 16-44's that I have run for untold numbers of hours without so much as a hickup. At least two units would be in the 100's of hours of use area and have shown no issues what so ever.

    I also have their new 44 T and these run well as well. The doodlebug runs like a first geenration Bachmann; which it is, regardless of the fancy box IMHO.

    Having been in the hobby for quite some time I buy a Bachmann product with my eyes wide open and knowing that I am not buying a Kato; Bachmann is a second tier manufacturer, and regardless of their improvements ( and there have been some significant ones in the last few years) they are not going to have the consistancy, nor the attention to detail of Kato or Atlas. At least that's the way I view their products and guide my decision making.

    I agree that communication with Bachmann rather than wholescale condmnation is a better way to affect desired change - cudo's to those that have made the effort.
     
  3. davidone

    davidone TrainBoard Member

    368
    2
    13
    I have not been a big bachmann fan but i did buy the 44T and i have been suprised, i also have ordered the DD40AX and although i have not received mine yet i have seen them and although not perfect they look pretty good. A freind of mine who already has them tells me that are smooth and quiet running. I also do not like mfgs who advertise one thing then do something else without telling their customers and the reason for the change. What people have to understand and what Puddington stated is that Bachmann is a second tier mfg. in N scale and if you expect Kato, Atlas quality i think you are kidding yourself. Be choosy of what you buy and that don't just apply to Bachmann and pick what you like but don't expect the quality of the top tier mfgs. For example Atlas new locomotives w/dcc MSRP-$179.00, bachmann--w/dcc DD40AX--$110.00, street prices for both Atlas $139.00, Bachmann--$75.00. After all i do wish Bachmann would improve to the likes of Kato and Atlas but i'm not holding my breath for it to happen anytime soon. Just my thoughts.

    Dave
     
  4. fatalxsunrider43

    fatalxsunrider43 TrainBoard Member

    789
    0
    14
    This makes me wonder why I am seeing many a Bachmann Spectrum Steamer on E-Bay go for $40.00 or $50.00, when they sell new in the sotres for over a $100.00
    I have purchased a couple on E Bay thinking I was getting a deal, maybe I was getting delt a lemon. An N Scale Spectrum J Class, and a Light Mountain, am I going to have these burn their motors out too ???? Bachmann just lost another customer in ME unless I know these purchases are not lemons !!!!
     
  5. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

    2,958
    270
    48
    Wow, that got dredged up out of the archives.......

    Since it has come back up, I thought I would post a little follow up. The problem with the motors appears to be/have been from the commutator slots clogging with brush debris, then shorting out the comutator on the motor and causing high ampdraw and eventual failure. It can be solved by periodically running the loco at high throttle settings for a few minutes every hour or so of runtime.

    After all this started, I put one of my 2-6-6-2's to a torture test. My loco is now going on 200 hours with out an issue. It did show signs of the motor bogging down around the 50 hour mark. At that point I opened it up and ran some full throttle laps around the test loop for about 5 minutes. After that, it settled down and ran like normal. The loco actually runs better after all that runtime on it. It is smoother that ever.

    My SD45 is currently going through the same bout but this is mostly a problem I caused. I over oiled the motor bushing and the oil is creeping back toward the comm and I have to clean it every half hour or so until I get all the oil out. I don't feel like stripping the loco to pull the motor and clean it properly.
     
  6. oldrk

    oldrk TrainBoard Supporter

    3,700
    184
    51
    I will remember this when the new H4 arrives. I wonder if its the same motor...
     
  7. N&W

    N&W TrainBoard Member

    990
    0
    20
    Tony,

    I appreciate the letter and the followup. Weird (annoying too) that ya gotta keep a time log and rev it up periodically.

    Hope they get at least the truth in advertising part correct.

    Mark
     
  8. Fotheringill

    Fotheringill TrainBoard Member

    5,982
    0
    74
    Tony-

    YOU have the knowledge and skill to diagnose and correct. Many of us don't. I wouldn't know a commutator from someone riding the LIRR to and from work every day.

    I do know that if my Bachmann 2-8-0's are not run regularly, they each need a few hour rebreak in period. I have stayed away from Bachmann for about three years now and will not go back until you post that its new steam engines run like Kato's.
     
  9. Calzephyr

    Calzephyr TrainBoard Supporter

    4,153
    1,149
    74
    At the present time, the majority of my steamers are Bachmann brand. 15 steamers of which 13 are Bachmann/Spectrum:
    1 Bachmann yard switcher (0-6-0)
    1 Bachmann Prairie (2-6-2)
    2 Bachmann/Spectrum Consolidations (2-8-0)
    2 Bachmann/Spectrum Mallet Moguls (2-6-6-2)
    2 Bachmann/Spectrum Heavy Mountains (4-8-2)
    7 Bachmann/Spectrum Light Mountains (4-8-2)

    Ten years ago I had NO steamers and wouldn't buy anything Bachmann or Spectrum because of the poor quality associated with the brand. Even after the 2-8-0 Consolidation was found to be a success... I resisted and didn't get one til several years later. The first Bachmann/Spectrum I got was the 4-8-2 Light Mountain and then I got the 2-6-6-2 Mallet Mogul. Both of these engines ran pretty well... but not really good pullers. I didn't feel they were worth the money after running them. I later got the 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain and was pleasantly surprised with it; and soon after found a Consolidation on sale and got it. Both of these are good runners.

    A couple of years ago I got another 2-6-6-2 Mallet Mogul because it was at a heavily discounted price. Since then I've seen many Bachmann/Spectrum items heavily discounted to the point that I've accumulated more of their steamers.

    One thing I've done to the older Light Mountain and Mallet Mogul is to change-out the tender for the new version put out a couple years ago. I haven't had any serious problem so far with any of the Bachmann/Spectrum stuff, but, I also don't really run them for long periods of time. About the only thing wrong with any of them is the need to run them for a while before they run smoothly.

    Of the regular Bachmann issues, the yard switcher is not a good runner... best left for display. The new Prairie Class (2-6-2) is 'just' okay... definately not in the same class as the Spectrum line.

    I hope that the problems depicted in the prior posts don't happen... but.. at least Bachmann has a good warranty. I just prefer not to have to use it... ;)
     
  10. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

    2,958
    270
    48

    Mark,
    Actually I think the issue has to do with break in of the motors. I have seen this with RC car motors which I am very familiar with. When the motor is new, the comutator has sharp edges that need to be polished/worn in. These edges wear the first bit of the brushes and this fills the slot in the com. As the motor breaks in, the sharp edges wear away and the brushes stop wearing as fast. Usually the first time you notice the motor bogging, is at the point that the brushes are fully seated and the comutator has smoothed out. Once you give it a blast and burn out the carbon, wear should be much reduced and it shouldn't be a problem again.

    At least these motors have carbon brushes. I can't remember what loco it was but there is at least one pretty popular one out there that Victor tortured that had metal wiper brushes.
     
  11. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

    821
    12
    15
    If the com is wearing out in just 24 hours, that means it is made out of really soft material, while the brushes must be very hard. In order for the two to last the brushes need to be just a little softer than the com. This is just common sense.
    Breakin for n-scale train locos really doesn't have anything to do with the com wearing out super fast.
    I'm sure Bachmann will take care of the problem it will just take time!
     
  12. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

    2,958
    270
    48
    Jim,
    Actually the break in process can take as little as 15 minutes on RC motors. RR motors have very light brush springs so it takes much longer for this to happen. In RC motors, we would water dip the motor to speed up the break in process. It would put a load on the motor, keep the brushes cool and act as a carrier to wash the carbon out of the slots as the brushes wore in.

    In the tradition of "a picture is worth a thousand words", here is a slightly exagerated picture of how break in happens.

    [​IMG]

    When the motor is new, the edges of the commutator slots are sharp and the brush profile is flat. The edges act as a rotary plane and cut into the brush, shaping it to match the curve of the commutator. Durring this process frictional wear and electrical arcing of the brushes helps to dull the edges of the commutator slots. Eventually everything wears in to look like the last picture, if all is well.

    This was a very important process in RC car racing. A properly broken in motor would last longer and could usually gain a couple thousand RPM in preformance.
     
  13. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

    821
    12
    15
    Skip, I know all about breaking in brushes. The difference between RC racing and N-scale trains is like day and night. I raced slot cars for 30+ years, you need to break the brushes in so you also get full power to the com, and reduce arcing . That's something you don't need in a n-scale loco. I have never broken in a n-scale loco and have never had a problem in over 40+ years
    I just don't see a need unless your doing n-scale loco racing.
     
  14. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

    2,958
    270
    48
    I know what I posted is excessive but break in is still very important for RR motors. It just takes longer. If you take an out of the box loco, put it in front of a train that maxxes it's pulling power and run it without break in, you risk a chance of damaging the motor. Especially with steam loco's with traction tires that can stall the loco instead of slipping wheels.

    Try speed matching a new loco against a loco that has some run time on it. Come back after a couple hours of running and they will be nowhere close to matched.
     
  15. Calzephyr

    Calzephyr TrainBoard Supporter

    4,153
    1,149
    74
    Well... as you can imagine... I'm somewhat concerned after completely re-reading this thread. Buying B'mann/Spectrum engines even at a discount recently doesn't make the motor issue any less disturbing.

    Skipgear (Tony)... you seemed to have backed down on some of the allegations regarding the performance and reliability of the models towards the end of the thread... so now...

    I have the following questions:

    The locomotives mentioned have 3 pole motors instead of 5 pole motors?

    The motors are not skew-wound type and do not have flywheels?

    The Spectrum DCC/DC version of the Heavy Mountain class has a record of burning out motors?

    Are we still having problems with these locomotive 'wearing-out' prematurely?
     
  16. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

    2,958
    270
    48
    The locomotives mentioned have 3 pole motors instead of 5 pole motors?

    Yes, the small can motor in the 2-6-6-2 is a 3 pole motor. The same motor is used in the Heavy Mountain, J-Class and H16-44 and none of those loco's have seen similar problems. I personally could care less about the 3 pole vs. 5 pole argument. If the driveline is built properly, with the motor choice as a design factor, the number of poles in the motor just doesn't matter. It took 3 years of this loco being released before anybody even figured out that the motor wasn't a 5 pole. Performance wasn't even the reason they found out, it was due to a motor failure. For the smaller and smaller loco's we keep asking for, a 3 pole motor is often the only choice available. Advertising it as a 5 pole was a big mistake but it doesn't impact how the loco performs.

    The motors are not skew-wound type and do not have flywheels?

    I really can't remember but I think they were. Again, if the loco is built properly with the proper gearing, it is a non factor. My 2-6-6-2 will run at around 3 SMPH with the motor they supplied so I am happy. My main concern was with motor life, not performance.

    The Spectrum DCC/DC version of the Heavy Mountain class has a record of burning out motors?

    None that I have heard of yet.

    Are we still having problems with these locomotive 'wearing-out' prematurely?

    As I mentioned earlier, I have a 2-6-6-2 that is approaching 200 hours on it. I was given a back-up motor by a friend so that I could rebuild mine after running it into the ground to the point of failure. I got tired of testing quite honestly and called it OK.

    The numbers that came from Bachmann basically show that the "rash of complaints" that started this are just a rounding number. Bachmann has ran 5 production runs of the 2-6-6-2's (the first one being admitedly junk, even by Bachmann) totally over 10000 units produced. The dozzen or so that popped up don't even amount to 1% of the production run. Too add to that, some of the problems were multiple failures attributed to the same person.

    That said, I will still buy just about anything steam that Bachmann produces, simply because they are one of the few companies willing to take a chance. I have one of the new 2-6-6-2's on the way and if it is good, I will probably buy more. I am hoping for more new steam from them. I am also hoping they learned from the experience with the first 2-6-6-2 and have improved the new ones, most importantly, by adding traction tires. I am hoping that they have gone to a die cast boiler on this one also. Time will tell as these are just starting to get into the hands of the customers in the next few days.
     
  17. oldrk

    oldrk TrainBoard Supporter

    3,700
    184
    51
    I havent read anything about having traction tires. I . also hope for a metal boiler. Should find out this coming week as mine should show up by them and will give a full report. I read that the HO version has"hardened brushes". I wonder what that is about?
     
  18. Calzephyr

    Calzephyr TrainBoard Supporter

    4,153
    1,149
    74
    Thanks for clearing up things...

    Skipgear (Tony),

    I appreciate the time you've taken to clarify the situation with the Bachmann/Spectrum products. Being an owner of so many of these myself... I was very concerned and your explanation has at least taken some of the angst away. My model trains don't get a lot of use because there are so many of them. There isn't enough time to run them for 'hours'... more like 'minutes'.:D None of the Bachmann or Bachmann/Spectrum items I currently own have had any serious operational issues... other than a lack of pulling power without traction tires (the 2-6-6-2).

    I'd say that I do not consider them [even Spectrum] a premium quality item for the most part... but... the prices they were asking for them certainly gave the impression that they would have all the latest innovations and quality expected of a premium product. Lacking a 5 pole, skew-wound motor with flywheel is 'generally' considered by most a feature that premium quality N scale locomotive models 'should' have. Bachmann loses a great deal of credibility by substituting anything less... even if it is of a comparable performance.

    I'm not looking to start a 3 pole versus 5 pole debate again, I'm just thinking about expectations of the typical model railroader. I don't know if there is a small enough, reliable enough or strong enough 5 pole motor to use in these models; but, for the asking prices the manufacturers have been demanding... the 3 pole motor... even a very good one... seems to be 'cheapening' the product. I for one... would NEVER have known that the motors were 3 pole versions. I was happy with the running quality of [particularly] the Heavy Mountain... though... now I just wonder if it could even have been better with a 5 pole motor.

    Tony, I greatly respect and trust your opinion because of your knowledge and experience with small motors in both R/C models and model railroading. If you were a manufacturer of an N scale model railroad locomotive (steam or diesel) which was going to sell for over $150... would you rather put a good 3 pole motor or a comparable running 5 pole motor?

    My guess is the typical manufacturer is going to look at the bottom line instead of the desire of the model railroader. If the 3 pole motors cost them $8.00 each and the 5 pole motors would cost them $10.00 each... over the run of 10k pieces... they save $20,000. Obviously... if the spread between the 3 vrs 5 pole motor is greater... the savings are greater. In Kadar's case... since they make there own motors... they probably had a certain size 3 pole motor they make and that's what they used. They were not going to buy from another source a five pole motor and increase their costs. Now that Kader has acquired SandaKan... and they made 5 pole motors for Atlas/Intermountain/LifeLike and maybe others... It is possible that the future production of Bachmann/Spectrum items will have the state of the art 5 pole motors.

    Let's hope that Bachmanns future releases are 'true' premium quality items using the latest and greatest technologies in the industry.
     
  19. skipgear

    skipgear TrainBoard Member

    2,958
    270
    48
    Unfortunately the only way to answer it is to dive into the 3 pole / 5 pole debate a little.

    I don't really care for one over the other. As an example, I just went to the trouble to replace the factory 3 pole motor in a Trix 2-10-0 with a 5 pole motor from a Kato Mikado. After all was said and done, there was not enough difference in performance to justify the work. The biggest advantage is that the Kato motor has a flywheel on it which smooths acceleration and deceleration.

    A properly built 3 pole motor will make more torque at a lower RPM, handle more current, and be able to handle heat better than a similar sized 5 pole motor. The only disadvantage to a 3 pole motor is the cogging effect at tie crawling speeds and at initial startup. This is the only difference most people see visually and thus the cry for 5 pole motors in everything. The 5 pole motors make less torque and don't jump to life at the first bit of power. This can be cured with either skewed armature, flywheels, or both with a 3 pole motor.

    Proper gearing can also help the cogging effect. A 3 pole motor geared 40 percent lower than a 5 pole motor will react the same. The lower gearing makes the cog's less dramatic and also helps with smooth starts and over all torque capability of the motor. It may restrict top speed without making objectionable noise because the 3 pole would to turn higher RPM to match the speed. Most of us run our loco's much too fast anyhow.

    The reason for using 3 pole motors is not purely cost. Size is a bigger determining factor. Motor performace is determined by the number or wraps of wire around each pole of the motor. The more wire per pole (both wraps and overall length), the more torque the motor will make, the lower the RPM will be, and the lower the ampdraw will be....all good things for the model railroader. The diameter of the wire determines the power handling capability of the motor. A 3 pole motor has more space to wrap wire on the armature, meaning you can use heavier wire and/or more turns of wire to achive the desired result. As the motor get's smaller, it becomes harder and harder to get enough wire of the the correct size on the armature for the motor to do what we want. Going to a 5 pole makes it even harder because more space is consumed by the armature blank.

    [​IMG]

    As a result, you have the option of making a micro motor a 5 pole but limiting it's voltage handling capability (I.E. Z scale which is limited to 8V track power) or have so little wire on the armature that it is an RPM demon with no torque.

    You could also go coreless but then the cost of the motors goes up by a factor of 10 or more resulting in at minimum tripling of the price of the loco's.

    If there is room, a 5 pole motor is probably prefered. As companies are trying harder and harder to maintain scale dimentions, oversize boilers to fit the motor are no longer an acceptable option. If it takes a 3 pole to fit, then by all means use it but make sure the driveline is designed properly to take advantage of the properties of the motor.

    Keep in mind, the Kato NW2 and GS4 both have 3 pole motors in them. As motors get smaller, you will see more and more 3 poles.
     
  20. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

    1,251
    1
    33
    This isn't about whether a 3-pole motor is better than a 5-pole skew wound motor. This is much more about the manufacturer delivering a product that IS NOT the product they ADVERTISED. In otherwords, it's fraudulent, whether they meant harm or not. In order to cover themselves legally, Bachmann would have to informthe public specifically what motor is in the item when it arrives - particularly if the qualities of the motor [poles, windings, material, grade] in the item is a selling point!

    You cannot advertise one product and then substitute another in its place.
     

Share This Page