This was posted today's (3/12/09) Trains News Wire..... (I also posted this on the Photography Forum so more folks would see it.) Amtrak bans photographers from station platforms Published: Thursday, March 12, 2009 (Trains News Wire) WASHINGTON - Amtrak has released a new photography policy that bans photographers without tickets from station platforms. The policy, which comes in the wake of an embarrassing case of photographer harassment in New York's Penn Station, was hashed out with input from the National Press Photographer's Association. The guidelines specifically permit photography in "public access areas" on Amtrak property, which it defines as "[a]n area open to general public access and occupancy that is not otherwise posted or restricted by posted signs or locking devices." However, it specifically states that station platforms are for ticketed passengers only. For their part, ticketed passengers will be able to take photos from station platforms while preparing to board a train or immediately after getting off one. Walter Zullig, a regional vice president for the National Railway Historical Society and an attorney, lambasted the new policy in an interview with TRAINS News Wire today. "It's been done to enhance their legal position," Zullig said. "It does not help at all enhancing railroad photography, and I think it's really a poor way to treat your best friends." Zullig said the NRHS encourages members to railfan from station platforms because they're safe. The new Amtrak policy, though, apparently will unreasonably prohibit that in most cases. "We can understand it in a place like Penn Station in New York or Union Station in Washington or 30th Street Station in Philadelphia, where they control access to the platform," Zullig said. "But they've written this in a way that could apply to Truckee, Calif. It's overkill." Zullig said his group will push to get Amtrak to change the policy. An Amtrak spokesman didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.
Actually, I think this is probably mostly a good thing. Amtrak has explicitly stated that it's okay to take pictures of trains. That should give photographers a line of defense against imbecile "security personnel" who think that it's some kind of threat for anyone to take a picture of anything. Such as those involved in the "embarrassing case of photographer harassment" (in case you missed it!). The policy about only ticketed passengers on platforms is obviously not necessary in a place like Truckee. I hope it's not enforced too strongly in a place like that. (And otoh, it gives Amtrak personnel a justification in case an un-ticketed person is behaving unsafely.) But it's a policy that could be tweaked without reference to photography issues at all.
I guess I am of mixed opinion about this. It sounds like they are trying to accomodate photographers, but by the same token they are not worried about the safety of those folks (since platform photography is the safest). I can forsee a day when we railfans will have to submit an application to railroad X, Y, or Z to get a permit to do photography...with a healthy fee attached of course!
Such a fee would require a change in the laws of the country. I suspect any such attempt would be immediately shot down in the courts.
Where there is a will there is a way. It may be an application to Homeland Security for instance. Also, remember the hoopla over model producers "impinging" on trademark railroad logos? Really all the railroads have to do is point out that their logos appear in these photos and require a license fee. This of course would also likely be sent to the National Database just as the names of folks seeking to buy guns go through a 30 day review...anyhow, just a possibility of future developments.
The legality of ordinary citizens taking photographs in public places for their personal use (not commercial use) has been well-established by the courts, even since 9/11. Such an "application," as you call it, would be unconstitutional on its face. Pointing out that their logos appear in these photos would have no bearing on this right. There are lots of "possibilities" of future developments, but this isn't likely to ever be one of them.
I can understand their restricting areas where passengers board and personnel must work with baggage, etc. Should they attempt to restrict beyond that, I can guarantee we'll hear about a court fight. Boxcab E50
And in DENVER, Amtrak doesn't own the platforms, it's RTD Property... :tb-rolleyes: :tb-rolleyes: :tb-rolleyes: :tb-rolleyes:
I guess my question is what will restricting photos from the platform to ticket holders only accomplish? What is their objective here? I don't think it has anything to do with security. If a bad guy wants to take pictures for surveillance, he just has to buy a ticket and he wouldn't be harassed. Or if he didn't buy a ticket, he could just make sketches or whatever. I just don't see any reason for it. I think they sould take it a bit further actually and restrict platforms to all but ticket holders, regardless if they are taking pictures or not. And they should be screened. That would be the security solution. Eric
I would guess their purpose is twofold. One being safety for riders and employees. Another making it easier for crews to know who should be boarding or de-training. Boxcab E50
But their policy doesn't prohibit all people from the platform without tickets. Just those who are taking photos. So the employees still don't know who should be there and who shouldn't. And it doesn't prohibit those without a ticket from getting close to the trains either, so the safety issue doesn't fly either. Eric
They can't possibly have that policy in Union Station in Chicago. Amtrak doesn't Own the tracks or the platforms. Metra goes in an out all the time too.
Is the information presented by media an accurate quote? (Accuracy from those people. Hah. Right.) Is that restriction part of a larger policy, and only the photog portion has been excerpted? I would like to see it in proper context. Even if as stated, they'll have one heck of a time enforcing such a policy. Having been part of a rush to board, and the scramble of arriving passengers, I know that having excess people around can be a huge PITB! Boxcab E50
This is wrong. According to what was posted above, the policy "specifically states that station platforms are for ticketed passengers only." In fact the subject line of this thread is also wrong. Photography by ticketed passengers is explicitly permitted. And the headline of the Trains News Wire item may also be wrong, unless it is established that platforms were previously open to everyone. It was easy to find the actual policy with Google. (first result for "amtrak photography policy") It does not say that photographers are specifically prohibited from any locations, in fact it mostly says the opposite. The first line of the policy is: "The taking of photographs and/or videos is permitted within public access areas on Amtrak property..." And the last line is: "..the taking of photographs and/or video may not, in and of itself, rise to the level of reasonable suspicion or probable cause [to pursue investigations, perform searches, etc.]. Also see here. Amtrak police have been specifically told not to destroy photos or confiscate equipment unless they are going to make an arrest. I would say that this is "a step in the right direction".
So basically On a public platform which I'm pretty sure Amtrak doesn't own It's legal, but if people are trespassing in Railyards to do it without permission or proof of permission then it becomes outlawed. Am I even close to understanding this?
Yes, I think that's right. Just as we as railfans stay away from railroad property, including Rights-of-way without permission, we must stay away from Amtrak-owned platforms unless we are ticketed passengers. Regardless of future developments, I DO think this is a compromise on the part of Amtrak, but the test will be if we continue to see arrests or even just harassment from personnel even in "public" areas. In many ways this is like the railway system in Briton. There are, for instance, no trash cans present at ANY station stop. An inconvenience to be sure, especially when traveling with children but that pales in comparison to WHY the trash cans were removed (they were a favorite spot for IRA explosive devices). So, in the interest of keeping everyone safe, I can live with this new rule, even in far off places like Grand Juction, Colorado or Gallup, New Mexico.
Something to think about here- In some instances where Amtrak may not own the station platform, they are still a tenant by some legal status. They cannot simply use without some payment or agreement. As a part of this, likely they've gained some sort of ability to have a say in that use. Through that, they will be able to regulate such as we have seen noted here. Boxcab E50
This is a poor solution to their mistake that would have only required a "We are sorry" in most likely hood.
Sorry. I posted hastily. I was just going off the original article posted and mis-read it. But I do agree that platforms should be for ticketed passengers only. Eric
