Frankly if we had to start from scratch, this loco would have never seen the light of day. As noted numerous times, it was done so we could use something in our set packs and I thought the general public would be receptive. Based on the sales I was correct, but there are those who have high standards and no room for compromise even if this is a hobby. I get hate mail when we use the wrong brake wheel so none of the criticism has been a surprise...except some of the personal and professional attacks levied at me....which was startling. Some give no quarter and nothing anyone is going to do is going to make a difference. I can fill several posts on compromises made in existing releases by other companies that went ignored, made excuses for or were supported by the vary same folks who look for every opportunity to attack MTL. Most of that has been mainstreamed elsewhere and it's just one of those things we have to contend with. I don't have problems with the decisions made on this car or the physical compromises...it was done given the sides of the box so to speak we had to work within. Would I want it to be perfect, yes, of course. Other mistakes, were...mistakes and being a human endeavor and apparently according to the SCOTUS given the rights of personhood are going to make mistakes. and for that...sorry. Joe
First post in a couple of years. Think MTL, Kato, and Atlas are the 3 major N gauge players and very important to the hobby. Probably the low sales volume makes prototype specific locos unprofitable and seldom done. But Rapido trains is going to do the NH EMD FL9's which I believe is the first time they have been done in plastic in any gauge. Look at the N gauge glass as half filed instead of half empty. Apparently based on sales the SW1500 is a sales success as it should be.
Joe... When you try to appease the rivet counters you can bet your bottom dollar that you are gonna get burned at the stake ! For years the proto guys have been screaming for proto fidelity on everything. At what cost? Locomotives hitting the 250.00....300.00+ price range or freight cars in the 50.00 range...that is absurd !! Throughout time 'modelers' took what was out there and 'modeled' it to their satisfaction. Then some started screaming they wanted it all 'perfect' from the manufactuer right out of the box...a tall order. Rivet counters wont be happy even if you use a shrink ray on the 1:1 to make it as perfect as possible. When a manufacturer tries to give em what they want...you can bet they are NOT going to accept it. There will always be something 'wrong'. The 'average modeler' will accept what is offered. The majority of those in the hobby dont care about rivets...just so it runs right. If we want 'details...we can add em ourselves...or just be happy to let what we buy run like they are right out of the box !!! I have contended for years now that those who scream about all the correct details will drive manufactures to NOT make models the majority of us would accept. Then along came the 'preorder' BS and a lot of stuff wasnt made because in the end...the sticker shock caused the majority to shy away and the lack of preoders reflected that. I read some of the BS that was aimed at you and your company on another forum. At this time I can only presume that maybe you have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and realize if you cater to the few...the majority suffer. Sorry you are getting the flack you are. I will buy at least one of your SW1500's just because I need a switcher or two. I cant buy hundreds like some people claim they would if it is 100% correct. My pockets arent that deep. But if the price is right for a good running locomotive and a hundred people buy one...the end result is the same. ;-)
Rivet counting was supposed to be for those who could take a standard locomotive and add the details, parts and rivets needed to make the locomotive a prototype. Grant you all the improvements on the shells of the locomotives have been welcomed. But let's not forget the chassis's and electric motors have moved in a positive direction, with much needed improvements. Never mind DCC and Sound. No wonder a locomotive today is priced out of my budgetary allowances. I once said that model railroading started out just for the affluent. Although my saying something doesn't make it so and I suspect that spills over to all of us. It was during my first ten year of model railroading from the late 50's through the 60's. Model railroading became accessible for the less then fortunate. It was during that time that even the model railroad wig wags (magazines) of the time carried articles on how to detail an Athearn, Tyco, Revel, Varney, and other toy train stuff. It was during this era that articles pointed out how many scale feet or inches something was off. Even showing how to cut a grill out so the three scale inches it was off could be fixed. Really! For the prototypes it was a real challenge as most of them machined their own train equipment or purchased the Brass Offerings from Japan. Prototyping was for the affluent. No doubt about it. I ask, has anything changed? I'll leave you to your own conclusion. Still, thank full for the offerings that have come along. Most of my equipment is pre-DCC or the DCC Ready era, and the detailing is good enough, to leave well enough alone. This prototype... dead horse has been beaten to death many times before and it still hasn't managed to resurrect it. Flog it again, Sam! Sam, a hypothetical flogger.:wideeyes: Beside the glue we use is many horses out from the original glue donor.:teeth: On another note and back to the subject at hand: I still wish someone would put out a SW type in the Santa Fe, Zebra Stripes. I had two Life Like switcher types, and an alleged good friend stole them both and sold them for beer money to a contact/fence he'd meet at a LHS. True story. I would not know until recently the full impact he had on me. I'm missing stuff to much to list but here's a hint... video's, building kits, passenger cars, freight cars, some personal items and of course the locomotives. GRRRRR. It's no wonder I won't open my train layout to the general public, and choke down the horror of fellow model railroaders visiting it. Seriously. Paranoid plus. It is what it is.
It's the age old model railroading topic, ain't it? My personal opinion is that the anal-retentive fussbudget "know it all" experts will never be satisfied. Never! My unasked-for advice is to simply make the best model that you can (while also making sure that it makes you the most possible money) and all will be well Well, except for when one of "them" corners you at a trade show. You're on your own there, lol. Cheers, -Mark P.S. I could never work for a model railroading manufacturer. I'd be doing ten-to-life for aggravated assault faster than you can say "1/27th of an inch"
Actually I do have a fleet with Rapido couplers and a fleet with knuckle couplers. My Rapido coupler fleet is mostly older stuff I collect and stuff I let my kids run. My knuckle couplers are all "N scale" and so are far too large to be scale but I operate and the larger couplers are easier for me to work with. Yes but MT already stated that the high end accuracy market isn't what they were going for so high price was more of an issue. I don't think we should encourage mediocrity, but doing so would involve spending your money. If you really want to discourage mediocrity, don't buy the locomotive and then send MT a friendly email, letter, or forum post outlining the basic reasons why you didn't buy it and be done with it. I am seeing a lot of people get really upset about this as though they are being forced to buy something which isn't accurate enough for them... That's all. I'm not sure this is true. Certainly more die hard hobbyist buy "better" products in terms of scale appearance, DDC features, etc., but numbers wise we sold far more medium priced locomotives and rolling stock when I worked in the hobby business. Long after they were discontinued we couldn't keep plastic frame Life Like locomotives on the shelves (mostly bought by hobbyist) and even the lower end Bachmann locomotives were bought in large numbers (mostly by people looking for cheap runners). In the meantime an initial order of FVM locomotives might sit around for years with only one or two sales. I'm not saying this applies to you but people lament a lack of young people in the hobby and frankly, moderately priced locomotives which may not have perfect detail are where those young people get started. That's why Bachmann's recent, really nice, locomotives were out selling the competition by a wide margin when I left the business... more bang for the buck with liveable compromises. I hear what you are all saying about the missed opportunity to produce a really good (read: accurate) locomotive with a wide market, but MT chose a different business model. They wanted something inexpensive to pull train sets, this SW1500 fits that bill and it does so largely because they didn't reinvent the wheel when it comes to the mechanism... which also it the primary root of most of the complaints. If you don't like the locomotive, vote with your dollars, I'm betting the market won't care that much. The Life Like SW chassis is a good runner and a lot of people are going to stop caring at that point.
Ike, Believe me, I am in that group, and what will probably happen is instead of buying a bunch of road names, I will hope Joe follows through on my off beat road, the IHB before buying, unless I buy one just to see how it runs. CR or NS would be fine by me. I mean, I really want to buy one, probably will, and won't let minor compromises stall it. I already have three LL SW9 and like them, so I am sure I will like these. Heck, I still haven't seen one live. I bet they look fine. They must run good.....good enough to fly off the shelves!
Flog it again Sam. I do agree with the idea of vote with your dollars. What amazes me is, everything from the highly detailed to junk on E-pay is selling. I'd say the jury is in, the vote has been counted and the winner is? I'll leave you to your own conclusion.
For what it's worth, I put a reserve on CR 9095 when it becomes available. It fits the bill for what I'm doing. Looking forward to getting it!
I pretty much agree with a lot of the comments made in the post numbers 103 through 106. And while the locomotive is too modern for my modeling era I am still happy it came out and don't really give a hoot whether something is a scale .350 of an inch off. I am not hung up on what truck something has or the number of rivets in a headlight casing. What concerns me more is that first of all the locomotive runs well. Next does the paint job, lettering, and general construction and what detail parts there are added on or cast on do a good job of catching the flavor of the 1 to 1 version when running on my track. Basically does it look good and run good then I am happy. Time to get real. There is no way that a loco, or car, manufactured by todays equipment is going to 100% on. Most of the details are way to numerous and fine in this scale to be made perfect without being too fragile to handle. And there are just too many varieties out there to make it profitable to try and make them all. You get into that and you are into museum quality brass and price. A case in point is the fine example of the 4-4-0 put out recently by Atlas. While both examples I have are very fine little jewels and run better than a fine Swiss watch, those very delicate and to scale pops were the first thing everyone broke off, even me knowing about the issue and handling delicately. I simply went to my parts box and replaced same with fine metal castings of them. I mean this is called modeling isn't it. Not every SW out there rides on the same trucks and most likely if one looks far and long enough a few can be found that just may be riding on two different trucks. I suppose that MT was supposed to model that also? If you don't like the trucks simply commission a correct type replacement sideframe on Shapeways and get down to do some modeling. If enough folks need a certain type sideframe then it should be reasonably affordable when the costs are split up. MT has made some nice products over the years and still do. And unless you take a magnifying glass or a jeweler's loupe to them they look a lot better than the earlier stuff that we had and are good enough for me and I suspect the majority of modelers. Keep on trucking or should I say Railroading MT and be hanged the rivet police.
The Area 51 engine is (quite) a bit over the top - but there are a couple of customers at the LHS I patronize who will buy anything and everything that rolls out of the MTL factory. That being said, is there no middle ground? Either you detail everything to the Nth degree or you're just playing with toy trains? If it wasn't for the so-called "Toy Train Buyers", you'd have nothing on which to install all those details because the manufacturers simply can't survive on sales to the "serious" modelers alone. So, unless you'd rather be completely scratchbuilding every model from the wheels on up, all the "Rivet Counters" should be thanking all of the "Toy Train Buyers" for buying gobs of products instead of holding them in contempt.
Uhh...err...I got news for everyone. From the cheap toy train set to the most prototype locomotive and train equipment out there....they are all toys. The only way to know the boys from the men is the cost of their toys. If you don't mind I want to get back to playing with my all but prototype toys.
I'll probably get a BN or two, however I really hope that while MTL is on the retooling truck sideframes for flexicoils, they also do AAR-A's with roller bearings. And if they do, hopefully these will be available as separate parts for those of us who care/are concerned about the truck appearance. Until then, guess I'll figure a way to remove the cast on solid bearing journal covers and graft roller bearings from a donor truck to the sideframes.
Hey folks... only 10 more pages of this and you'll surpass the total over "on another network." No, wait, this just in... that festival is up to 27 pages so this thread needs another 15. By the way, just curious... do any of you who publicly pronounce "none for me" or "Mr. Wallet is safe" or "I won't buy this" on this and other model railroad forums about this and other products from other manufacturers also go around big box stores and supermarkets proclaiming to anyone who will listen that you're not buying this or that?
I think there is a large group of modelers that are between the two groups. It is a massive sliding scale. This whole thread is just the different groups voicing their opinion of a new product. Just like we have people who just want to run trains in circles and we have the strict ops based people, they don't understand why the other group is happy with their choice. It's not that anyone is doing anything 'wrong', it's just that we approach the hobby differently. Will these groups ever find consensus? No. But they all have a right to their opinion (as much as it may may the rest of us cringe).
They may have the right to their opinion, but in my opinion they do not have the right to look down their nose at other people's choices. In my estimation there is a LOT of that going on. (I wish I still had a post I saw somewhere that begins with, "I have not seen this model, but it is crap..." However, looking back at the early issues of Model Railroader from the DVD, I also observe that there is nothing new here. The difference is that today's technology makes this instantaneous and anonymous. And also not anything unique compared to the polarization over far larger issues of concern which is also nothing new except for technology and degree of vitriol. For me, this is supposed to be a hobby, not a shouting match. When the latter completely overwhelms the former, I'm done.
Yes, there is a middle ground as someone has pointed out. It's all a compromise, but the comparisons are to the state of the art locos in N, and not the "average" loco, which sort of skews the discussions. If we obsess enough over little trains to spend as much time as we do here, then we tend to get BW on comparing to the best. It seems the entire market is not that way, and the mfgs. know it. Like the comment on "I won't be buying" comments. Every new release is littered with those posts, as if the model railroad community is breathlessly waiting to know what you are buying. Seems that ought to go on twitter to your followers only. What? Like me, you have no followers? I would be even harsher, but as my post above, sometimes its hard not to refer to how much you are interested in an item while discussing it. I may be patting myself on the back, but I try to refer to my purchase patterns only in a broader context of discussion........I am sure someone will correct me on that! In any event, Joe says the sales are good, and I am glad for that. While MT could survive a bad sales product, I know how tight the margins are in a cottage biz like this and wish them well. And, like Joe, I do wonder about personal attacks on him and others in the biz based on some disappointment with the choice of products, some minor flaw, etc. They are hobbyists just like us, and even if not, don't deserve the personal attacks.
No I'm actually loosing sleep because Bachmann is still producing an extremely un-scale High Hood GP50 OK in all honestly you guys don't know me, so up front I want to say I'm just kidding, but couldn't resist posting the comment. In all honestly what really amazes me is, how this tread has gone on in Ad nauseam about the hood width and wrong bearings on the AAR switcher trucks, but no one is complaining about incorrect pilot stripes on the NS units? For me personally this issue can be corrected with decals, so if I was modeling the NS it would really be a non issue. Again to be honest, I don't have any experience with the Life-like / Walthers trucks on the SW 9 and SW1200's, so I'm unsure how the side frames are attached to trucks? My question, can the correct truck side frames for these units be created using Shapeways? What I am looking forward to is MTL's upcoming release of the SW1500 with hood mounted handrails. I know they've also mentioned producing Flex-Coil trucks, so who knows maybe they'll add roller bearing AAR switcher trucks to the list?
Interesting side discussions here. I agree there is a complete spectrum of what type of modeler each of us strives to be. However, I always find it interesting how the rivet counter gets vilified for criticizing the model itself by--well--the "non-rivet-counters". Then when they defend their stance, they are vilified for "attacking" others and not letting them enjoy modeling the way they want....which is exactly what was being done to the rivet counters in the first place! (and yes, I lean toward the rivet-counter side of things...probably in the 7 or 8 on a scale of 10 area.) Almost 100% of the time this is how these discussions go, yet the yippy-dogs out in the cheap seats--that admittedly don't care much about what the model looks like--lob the grenades in and duck and then act like they are innocent victims from "anonymous" forum trolls. Well guess what, about 80% of the forum participants are either signing their real names or broadcast enough info that they aren't really very anonymous at all. So, nobody is buying the whole woe is me victim cherade. Regarding the "I won't be buying", I've never looked at that so much as "look at me" but rather "full disclosure I probably won't be buying this, even though I'm enjoying and participating in the discussion." They still might have valuable insight to the discussion, but you take their "passion" about it with a grain of salt. I think that developed largely in part to some pretty spectacular flame wars on Atlas whereby at the very end one of the main players states "I'm not buying one anyway" and that kinda kills your credibility when you go that ape nuts about something you're not even going to buy regardless of how it turns out.
