Issue with GP 30 Wheels - Spinning Cracked Axle Gears

dmiller Sep 29, 2010

  1. dmiller

    dmiller TrainBoard Member

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    Hey all,
    Just looking for some advice/experience here. I have been running my USA GP30, and every so often, it will just stop.....and spin the wheels, not moving. Well, at first, I THOUGHT the wheels were just turning, but when I looked close...I could here the motors running, but the wheels were not turning....ie, it seemed to be slipping inside the gear boxes. I thought maybe the rubber traction wheels were the culprit, but if the none of the wheels are turning, then there has to be another issue. I have yet to open up the drive sets from underneath to see what is maybe going on. Has anyone else had a similar issue? and If so....what was/is the fix?? It is random. Sometimes right off the bat......and others, after awhile. I can push the engine along, and it will catch and run fine for a while.......and maybe not happen again,,,,,,but then, sometimes it will happen again later.
    Any info or advice would be appreciated.

    After some more thought....this did happen once with my SD70 MAC....but only once. I attributed that one to some dusty/dirty track. (there are NO rubber wheels on the MAC)

    Regards,

    Darryl
     
  2. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    I own 2 USA Trains GP-30 units and never had a problem with them, they have been pretty reliable. It would surprise me if the gear was slipping inside the gear box. USA Trains uses a brass worm gear that is pressed onto the motor shaft. When I swapped out the motor on my NW-2 I was going to try to save the worm gear, but could not get it off the motor shaft. However it is possible to maybe have damaged motor block gears that drive the wheels since they are plastic, these are suppose to be grease, but when ever I buy a new locomotive, I never think they have enough grease on the motor blocks, so I tear them down and put my own grease in them. A matter of 15 to 20 minutes per loco, just remove the block from inside the truck frame by gently spreading the truck frame, mark the wires, take the screws out and grease it. Be careful that the brass conductors in the truck side frames don't come out as the act like a bushing also.
     
  3. dmiller

    dmiller TrainBoard Member

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    Slipping Wheels

    Ok, so I did a G----- search for USA Trains wheels slipping and I found that this is a rather common problem with the split axles in their diesles.
    I am not sure If I can copy / paste what the other site said, it was just from a persons own personal web blog.....but basically the metal axles spin inside the plastic gear housing. There is knurling to help hold the axles....but eventually, the plastic splits, or wears enough to cause the slipping.
    This gentleman put brass sleeves over the plastic gear casings to repair, and I will probably attempt the same thing.

    If anyone else has had a similar experience.......and made repairs.....please post what you have done to make the axles more durable.

    Thanks......

    D
     
  4. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman TrainBoard Member

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    I did a search and found a link to a repair process. I don't know if it is what you need, but it seems to be similar.

    This is the same problem with H0 scale Proto 2000 axle gears cracking. Because of the size difference, the solution is more complicated in G scale than in the H0 scale remove and replace. I do like the G scale solution. I don't know if it could be adapted to H0 scale, but replacing the gear in H0 scale is very simple anyway.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2010
  5. dmiller

    dmiller TrainBoard Member

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    Axles

    Flash,
    Yup, thats the same site I found. I have lots of brass tubing around.....and when I get a chance, will give it a go. Ill probably order up a pair or two of the replacements, just in case I screw something up.

    Thanks for looking!!

    D
     
  6. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Wow, I haven't heard of this problem until now. I can say that I own 15 USA Trains locomotives which includes 2 GP-30 units and the oldest is 10 years old and never had a cracked axle. At least USA Trains aknowledged the problem and fixed it.
     
  7. DragonFyreGT

    DragonFyreGT TrainBoard Member

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    I learned something interesting about this problem that applies to Aristocraft too. The only units I have that could honestly never suffer this issue are my custom run GP40's. Now the BN Custom Runs are the first trucks to have a fan on the axle gears. What causes the trucks to break down is because there's poor ventilation in the trucks and the gears crack in half. These new trucks basically use a fan to ventilate the heat and disapate it much like a computer's fans do. Aristo is also going to manufacture Trucks designed to replace USA Train's trucks with these fans in them aswell. No word from Aristo other than the announcement, but something I thought you'd all be interested in.
     
  8. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Aristocraft is making replacement drive trucks for USA Trains locos? This is a first, was there some kinda official announcement of this? Normally I see the opposite done because people are tired of cleaning thier track so I seen Aristo locomotives converted over to USA Trains powered trucks because everyone likes the slide pickup shoes.

    I don't believe this is a heat related issue as the motor and the gears are sperated from each other. Also I believe the fan in the Aristo truck mainly cools the motor but have not seen a break down of the motor block. My F3 ABBA units have run for hours on end every weekend for the first 5 years I owned them and today they all have the same powered trucks although they could use new ones as the brass bushings in the side frames are worn out due to alot of use, but they still never loose track power contact.

    I do know if you use track power and you locomotive comes to a sudden stop because it lost power, that could also cause alot of damage. This has to be a small problem because I don't hear these kinda problems on other boards except for a couple of people, not saying it can't happen, just saying it doesn't seem to be a wide scale failure of gears as it is made out to be.

    Aristocraft knew they messed up when they made the SD-45 1st generation locos with plastic worm gears. What burned me up is when they made the 2nd generation with brass worm gears, thy wanted you to buy the gear and install it. I'm like what? That would be like Toyota recalling thier cars and you had to buy and install the part yourself that failed or pay for the install..........what? You made a bad part and I have to buy the good upgraded one? NOT............ Talk about no service...........

    The LAST thing I would want in my USA Trains locomotive is a Aristocraft powered motor truck. As a matter of fact if Aristocraft did come out with the SD-9 like they were planning on 4 years ago but bailed out I would put the SD-70MAC powered trucks under it. But that is my opinion.
     
  9. DragonFyreGT

    DragonFyreGT TrainBoard Member

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    The fan cooling is still ventilation, it doesnt' break down. And Aristocraft said something about it, but they don't seem to make large announcements. I do know that the new 6-axles will have 2 motors instead of 3 and will fan cooled. It's a new type of power truck that is poised to become the industry standard.

    The new GP40 v2 type trucks are more reliable than anything they've made in the past. And since they are Ventilated it leaves room for USA Trains to re-think the power truck. Remember, a motor can build up heat reguardless and any manner of issues can form. Aristo did announce the replacement type trucks, they call them retro-install trucks, but they never said anything more past that, so knowing AC it could be on the board or in the dumpster bin.
     
  10. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    I know that about Aristo putting projects into the dumpster, Aristo finally admited to putting the SD-9 locomotive project into the dumpster, then closed and locked all posts of it on thier forum like it was never even a thought, real nice...not.
     
  11. DragonFyreGT

    DragonFyreGT TrainBoard Member

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    It would be a shame if AC abandoned it because the market for these retro-install trucks is great, especially in solving the above issues. I don't know if Charles Ro has thought about using fans on the motors or redesigning the trucks, but the GP40 v2 trucks are the best. They are so hard to kill and cause break down issues. Also I would add the pulling capabilities run best when your axles and gears don't break down, but we already knew that xD
     
  12. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    I do respect everyone's product preference. You like Aristocraft and I like USA Trains products, it's just like at the cars shows wit Ford, Dodge and Chevy guys. I will say this, the Aristocraft GP-40 does have the best motors in it on the market. With that being said they are not perfect either as with any product. I saw a club member at lthe 2009 ECLS spring show in York PA bought 3 Aristocraft Burlington Northern GP-40 units and one did break down right out of the box and yep it was motor block problems. Aristocrft was on hand to fix it however and they got it repaired so he could run it. He was happy they fixed it at the show, I guess they could have told him to ship it back to thier shop.
     
  13. dennissirrine

    dennissirrine New Member

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    USA Wheels

    I must say I to am mistified about any problems with USA wheels. I own 289 USA Train locomotives, and not one of them has ever had a wheel, or any problem period! And this is running those locomotives in 100 plus degree weather on many occasions. In fact, they are usually run with the weather being 85 to 95 degrees.

    And the large layout at the Pomona Fair in Pomona, California (The Fairplex) runs USA locomotives on very hot days also, and I know they have never had a wheel problem with their USA Trains locos. And during the past fair in the month of September, the tempurature danced around the 100 degree mark on many days.

    So that's my 2cents worth.
    Dennis Sirrine
     
  14. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Dennis, thanx for your input. I was wondering how well USA Trains locomotives held up in the hot heat whether. This is the first I heard of this also, although I don't own no where near the same amount of locomotives as you do. All of my USA Trains locomotives have been good runners also. My F3 ABBA units are now 10 years old and still run great to this day although they could use new powered trucks as the side frame brass bushings are worn out but they still keep going amazingly and never loose track power as the brass bushing is one way they recieve power to the motor as wheel as the pick up shoes. The motors in th USA Trains locomotives are seperated from the gears, there is a internal divider. Also the gear box where the gears are housed is heavily packed in grease.
     
  15. dmiller

    dmiller TrainBoard Member

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    Gear Problem

    Hey all,
    I guess I didnt really mean to stir the pot this much with the original question.....I was, (and still am) just trying to figure out what may be up with my engine.

    I have been too busy to try to do any testing, but today I hope to get out, and run this engine for a while to see if I can get it to reoccur. This way I can maybe see just exactly what is happening........ie, is it just that the wheels are slipping? Are the rubber drivers worn too much? is there something internal going on.? Without being able to duplicate the issue....all else is speculation.

    Thanks for all the replies.......I will try to post some results. From the info I have read, here and other places....I just may have an engine with a quirk.

    Regards,

    Darryl
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2010
  16. dmiller

    dmiller TrainBoard Member

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    Results

    Ok,
    I spent some time with my GP30 today.....and tried to give it a good scientific test....well.....at least as good a test as I could......and here are the results.

    First, I wanted to make sure there were as few variables as possible.....so I did a really thorough cleaning of the track.....first a good scotchbrite....then a wet cloth to pick up the dirt.

    Then, I ran just the engine on the track, at a set speed. Not too fast, not too slow. Then, I just let it run for a while to see what happend. Like in the past, it ran well.....so after about 10 min. or so....I added some cars, first one, then 2, then 3 to the run, just to add some weight. Well...after just a few circuits.....it just stopped!!!! So I quickly got down next to it to see just what was happening. The rear trucks were operating normally......but spinning.......because the front drive trucks were not running at all!! The back could not overcome the cars, and the front wheels not driving......so it just sat and spun the rear wheels.
    Then I had my wife add power to the transformer.....and at a point, the front drive came back to life. It ran for a circuit, but then again, just stopped, and again I got down and verified, the rear truck was running well.....but the front was stopped. I then was able to reach under and bump the 4 wires that run to the power block...and the front truck sprang to life! So , I surmised that the culprit might be some loose or bad/dirty connections at that truck. I pulled the engine off, and pulled the wire connectors off, then back on.....to clean the connections a bit, then re-ran the engine, and all seemed well. I could not run for too long with a load, as the wind was terrible, and kept blowing the cars over/off the track!!!

    So, for now, I think I have found the problem.......and I will clean and reattach the little wire connections from the engine to the blocks. At my next opportunity, I will re run the engine to see how it performs.

    One other note.......I also checked the temps of the motors.....and as I suspected, they barely got over ambient temps......so I dont think heat build up is an issue, until it is really hot outside, and the load is way up there.......these little motors should be able to easily handle the amps we put through them with out much trouble. I will, however, keep checking the motor temps down the road, to verify this.

    Regards,

    Darryl
     
  17. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    dmiller,

    The USA Trains does use female type terminals which could get dirty. Using die-electric grease available from a auto store should help and its meant to keep dirt and water out. We use it in the truck shop for $2,000 Engine ECM's. Also sometimes the round terminal may need to be slightly closed for a tighter coonnection.

    The motors can handles the amps, trust me. I have 24 volt 15 amp Bridgwerks transformers and those USA Trains locomotives loves that type of power.

    Wow, thats some heavy winds, did you have a hurricane going thru at the time you were test running? I can't imagine a wind heavy enough to blow off a G scale train car, that has to be blowing pretty hard.
     
  18. dmiller

    dmiller TrainBoard Member

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    Wind

    EMD,
    Ill be crimping the connections tighter, for sure, and I do have dielectric grease for it as well.
    Really, it doesnt take much wind at all, really......the cars are pretty light in comparison to real ones.........Engines arent a problem, though. Winds here today were gusting into the 20 mph range.......and some of my layout is pretty open. I just need to be careful.

    D
     
  19. GaryY

    GaryY New Member

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    I don't have the 20 mph winds...that's some gust.... My layout is somewhat sheltered but the odd gust can cause a car or two to wobble enough they lift a wheel off the track. I have stabilized them somewhat by changing over wheels to steel vs plastic wherever needed which helps a lot, especially boxcars and tank cars seem to love the wind.

    Good to hear you isolated and fixed your connectivity problem.

    Regards
    Gary
     
  20. Keith

    Keith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Do Aristo and USA both use the same type connections between trucks and motor?
    I'd have to dig mine out to see. And right now, I do NOT feel like doing anything!!
    Hurt too much after working last night.

    Have had winds here high enough to blow loose cars down the track!
    With plastic wheels even. Which was before I started swapping for steel wheels.
    Even a slight grade will get my cars rolling for several feet. Even on a 10 foot Diameter curve!
     

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