Well as a block user and probably a block user for some time yet I do beleive DCC is by far the superior way of operating a layout. I however have approx 40 locomotives that would require decoders to be installed and at $60 Aus each that is a lot of money not to mention the system itself. I would still maintain my blocks to enable a signalling system to control the layout so to me there is no real point. I really don't think there is an argument if I was starting new to the hobby I would definately go DCC. I dare say in the near future I will build a modular layout that will be DCC and possibly buy a few ready to run DCC locomotives. ------------------ Regards Paul Cassar-Moderator & Member number 50 SPAD Investigator #1 ICQ 61198217 http://users.bigpond.net.au/railroad2000
I see a little confusion on Bruce's behalf regarding DCC and computer control. They are not one and the same by a long stretch. DCC gives you the ability to control the train manually regardless of track configuration - ie no DC block restrictions - through creating a seperate entity for each locomotive. This is done by a decode in the locomotive. Computer control gives you the ability to automatically control the train via a set of programmed parameters within a computer program, outside the locomotive. It requires far more preparation to set in motion, mainly a way to detect the position of trains so the program can stop, start, and slow a train, or trains, depending on preset conditions. In essense it is an ATC signalling system on a home PC and works regardless of whether the power control is DCC or DC block. Gary. ------------------ Gary A. Rose The Unofficial TC&W page TrainBoard Moderator and Member No.377 N to the Nth degree!
OK, but how hard are the decoders to install?? Especially in N?? This is really an important part of the decision making process, because I will NOT be held captive by manufacturers who decide what locos get DCC and which ones don't . So if installation is very difficult, then my decision will have been made for me!! Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
All new "quality", Atlas, Kato, Life Like (there more most recent stuff) come decoder "ready"; more of a plug and play type deal - no soldering. Or you can buy them with decoder installed as I did with my Atlas SD60's. The manufacture's know that DCC is the future of the hobby. They were on the band wagon early. The price of decoders has been falling, but in N it is still more expensive than HO. For those with a fleet, I expect most you of you will run a certain number more than others; those are the ones I would begin decoding. For older engines, you can take out your frame and send it to a company who's name escapes me, and for something like $10 or $15 get a new frame which will give your room for your decoder. In many cities and towns there are people who will - for a price - put in some of the trickier ones. I have used such a person here in Vancouver, BC and was very happy with the results. You can ask here for the name of the company, they are on the net. I have been to their site but I still can't remember their name. For some reason the completely baffles me, most don't seem to catch on to the possibilities of computer run trains. I always hear: "I don't want the computer to run trains, I want to." They seem to think that all you do is program a computer to run a train and sit back in a chair with your coffee and watch them (actually that doesn't sound too bad to me). But the idea is to integrate the computer with your assignment so that it is more like an ops session with two or more people present. What's the difference if the computer runs the trains or "Bob (or whomever)." If you feel that it is important that Bob run the trains, name your computer "Bob." Now wouldn't it be great to have voice activated computer programs. "Bob, could you take the hot freight special to LA." And it did. And "Bob" would never time out.
Since my 4-year-old and I are likely to be the only ones running the layout, the computer "Bob" interface sounds interesdting . Are DCC units equipt with this interface possibility, or is it an add on? Will any computer work, or only certain brands?? For instance, I have a very old Mac that currently has nothing to do, could it be used or would I need to go with IBM etc. DOS type programmed machines?? Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsn48: For some reason the completely baffles me, most don't seem to catch on to the possibilities of computer run trains. I always hear: "I don't want the computer to run trains, I want to." They seem to think that all you do is program a computer to run a train and sit back in a chair with your coffee and watch them (actually that doesn't sound too bad to me). Why would it baffle you? The way it has been explained to me it sounds like watching Oprah.. I keep seeing the train running round in circles in the shop window.. stopping once at a station and then going again and stopping etc. I must be missing something with this DCC stuff... But the idea is to integrate the computer with your assignment so that it is more like an ops session with two or more people present. What's the difference if the computer runs the trains or "Bob". If you feel that it is important that Bob run the trains, name your computer "Bob." Now that sounds exciting! IM SOLD... "gee 'Bob'.. dont that linkup of SD40-2's look kewl coming out of the cutting.." Now wouldn't it be great to have voice activated computer programs. "Bob, could you take the hot freight special to LA." And it did. And "Bob" would never time out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well there is heaps of voice activated software out there, wonder if anyone has played with intergrating it...? ------------------ CK& Bird Butt Railroad - Its a coal mining region of a place far far away, that shares rails with SP, NS... Era: Time stands still round these parts, and we have everything from Steam, to Diesels...
One of the points of DCC is that you don't have to block wire you're layout, so that it will more easily integrated with a computer. You don't need DCC to work with a computer but it is easier. There are programs out there that will let you do all this but because we are still in the "early" stages of all this techno -wonder period; you won't see many people doing it. Also because of cost. You need block detection, and decoded turnouts so that the computer, or the DCC system (eg. The Chief in Digitrax) can throw pre-determined routes. Do I plan to do it? Yes! Do I plan to do it now? No! Like you I am building a layout with my son (he is 14). And as I probably don't have to tell you, especially when your son gets older; you are going to hear: "when is the layout going to be ready so I can run engines." So my priority is to finish a helix I am working on, get lighting, backdrop and track laid before I go beyound the simple. On our smaller layout, we have The Chief (Digitrax). We got it so that any plans we had in the future would be doable because The Chief could handle any future expansion into pre-determined routing linked with a computer. Visit the NMRA site, go to Special Interest Groups (Sig's) and looked for DCC. This will open a new world for you.
The reason you won't see a lot of computer running is that each electrically thrown turnout that the computer uses, should have a "stationary" decoder, not the same decoder as used in an engine. The decoder then can be used in conjunction with a computer program. Also in the Digitrax Chief, this can be done with out a computer. Also you have to have considerable block detection so the computer program knows where the train is to operate it. DCC makes running with a computer easier, because you don't have block wiring; thus simplifying the procedure. Running with computer is still used by only a small number of people with a good "disposable" income. If you are like me and my son - "Dad, when is the layout going to be ready!!!" - then first things first. I have to finish the helix, the backdrop and the lighting before I start laying track ( we have a small 2 ft by 8ft we are using now). We have bought the Chief in anticipation of our larger layouts needs. I would like to go to computer generated schedules because all too soon he will be leaving the nest (he is 14 now) and I will not have him around to run the layout. On a smaller layout, actually it is easier to need DCC. The reason is the the blocks are so much shorter that you are always throwing them. On our 2 by 8 ft layout, we are always using blocks (we have 13 of them) and it is a pain in the butt. However, since we went to the Chief, we just throw them all one way and run the trains and not the track.
DCC or Not? You have to. It's as simple as that. I bought my DCC in September, and already have 8 of 18 locos decodered. I have a 3'x5' layout outside on my apartment patio. I am able to watch as 1 loco backs up to consist with another loco. Couple together for the run. And then uncouple over the MT magnet in the tracks, without even touching the locos. It is also really cool to have a loco sitting in the yard, ready to make it's run, and having the headlight on. Just like the prototype. Does DCC take away the enjoyment of running the train myself? Absolutely not. There are things that could not be done with toggle and block. You are still running the locos yourself. And it is the locos that you are actually running, not power to blocks of track. I take my DCC setup with me to my father-in-laws house. His layout is 6'x20'. We have 3 trains running at a time from one throttle. 2 or 3 locos to a consist. 10 to 25 cars per train. All my locos are speed matched so any 4 or 6 axle loco can run together with any other loco, in forward or reverse. No more having to decide which locos are geared close enough to run together. This can be corrected for in the programming. How hard are locos to add a decoder to? I would venture to say that ALL new locos to come out from Atlas and Kato are DCC ready. This means that all one has to do is remove the light pc board and install one of the Plug and Play decoders. Digitrax and Lenz both make decoders for almost all locos that are DCC ready. What about older locos installations? Well some are possible and some are not. You need to be able to isolate the motor from the pickups so that a decoder can be inserted in the electrical path. Now I realize that this is possible in most locos, but locos that are split frame, 5 pole skewed, flywheel equipped will be the best candidates for the conversion. Aztec manufacturing mills frames for all of these sorts of locomotives. You send them your frame and they send it back milled with room for the decoder. This only costs $10 per frame. These are a little trickier to convert, but definately nowhere near as hard as working out a whole toggle and block wiring diagram. Consider it no more. Much more prototype running of locos. Wait till you have the headlights programmed for rule 17 dimming. The headlights dim when approaching another loco, on your command, or when you are reversing the loco onto a siding etc. Well any way have fun with your layout no matter what you decide. Talk again soon. [This message has been edited by Drew Aldridge (edited 23 December 2000).]
Well Drew, Thanks for your take in this !! I am 99% sure of DCC now, and even have a good idea of which unit I would like...now I just need to find the funds to do it !! (honey...do we have an extra $400.00 laying around this month?? Yeah, right!!) Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsn48: We have SD60's (4) and SD35's (a couple) and they are decoded. I think the decoder in the SD35 gave us problems, it had a bow in it and created contact problems. I can't remembe if we shimmied it from underneath on the roof, or if we just bent it back. But it is working fine now. As for the large fleet problems, I would suggest getting your DCC power pack, command station, throttles. Then in your next land fall of money do about 12 engines (your most frequently run ones). With visitors who are on your layout frequently, we have already experienced that problem. We have DCC but where we go to run doesn't. We aren't thrilled with the noise that analog engines make without DCC on DCC layouts. So it is always a debate with us to DCC a loco or not. If we set it up for our DCC layout, it limits us in running it on a non DCC layout. I have seen people bring goodies that have been DCC'd in HO scale as well, not happy with the running characteristics on nonDCC layouts. I would tell people with large layouts and fleets that if the problem is bad now, what will it be like ten years from now when it is even more predominate. I went to a train show here in Vancouver BC. We were buying an HO RDC, not DCC equiped. We wanted to hear it on a nonDCC layout. At the show, we really had to search to find a layout that wasn't running DCC. Tomorrow is here already, today! I can truly understand the reluctance on some with large layouts to convert, the cost is very high. You need more cabs, a ton of decoders, maybe reversing loop problems, lots of power and an understanding of a new technology. So I do empathize with you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Anyone starting a new layout today should seriously look to DCC. Both DigiTrax and Lenz are very easy to use and very dependable. I would guess that the new Atlas and MRC units are also of high quality. I use the DigiTrax myself, and it has greatly simplified wiring my new layout. As far as problems with reversing loops and tracks, you can purchase an automatic reversing unit or you can wire the reverse tracks as a separate block as we did with block control. Nothing could be simpler. As far as layouts that are already wired for block control, all you have to do is add your DCC wiring, and when you wish to run DCC, make sure your DC power pack is turned off, turn on your DCC unit, set all of your block controls to the same polarity, and off you go! Again, no problem. As far as decoding your locomotives, I have used both DigiTrax decoders and Lenz decoders in Atlas, Kato, and Life-Like locos with no problem. Yes, DCC is the future, and the future is now. Merry Christmas everyone! ------------------ Tom
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JCater: Alan, you and I are in a bit of the same boat...with me it would be like teaching an old dog new tricks ...yet, the thought of ALL of those blocks on this new layout blows my mind !! Of course, for me at this point, finances are the bottom line. I can't fathom still needing the basics (more track and roadbed etc.) AND going DCC . And yet, if it is as good as everyone makes it sound, there would be more fun and less work involved in running the layout later on... Since I was HO for many years, my stable of N locomotives is quite small for the time being. Perhaps that is the best argument I have yet heard...get in on the ground floor as it were...Happy Modeling!! John <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm new to this forum, but I have been active in model railroading for over 40 years. Between 1960 and 1976 I built four rather large HO layouts using multiple block control. The last layout was walk-around throttles. I'm in the process of building a rather decent sized N scale layout, approximately 18' by 8', in a large E shape. This will be freestanding with backdrops down the center of each section. DCC is making it so much easier to wire this layout, and DCC makes for much better operation, with realistic speeds and without the bother of having to make sure the block controls are set to the right polarity when you entrer. Adding decoders isn't really that hard, all you have to do is use a little care to make sure you do not crack the printed circuit boards or cause a short circuit. So, by all means, go with DCC! It will save you so much time and energy in building your layout, it will more than pay for itself, and it will add to your enjoyment immensely. ------------------ Tom
Hello Tom. A warm welcome to Trainboard Thanks for the input, I am learning a lot about DCC by reading all the comments. I have already made the decision to go with DCC, but not yet spent the money I also decided on Digitrax, after hearing about all the systems, I have also seen it demonstrated at a train show here in England. DCC is obviously the way to go (just after I have finished wiring all my blocks!) ------------------ Alan Curtis. Moderator. Member #12 The perfect combination - BNSF and N Scale! www.alancurtismodels.com Andersley Western Railroad Alan's American Gallery
Welcome to the Forum!! Your layout sounds like mine !! I do apreciate the input...and Alan, this is why I posted this question NOW, before I started the long process of wiring blocks !! Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
My advise to anybody even concidering DCC would be to find someone who already has it and ask to run a train on the layout. This will tell you in short order if DCC is for you or not. ------------------ Catt!#118 - Moderator and A freelancer to the end
