Since this question regards N scale, I thought it best to post it here!! I am standing, looking out at the wasteland that soon will be a vast N scale empire !! As I stare glaze-eyed at the pike-to-be, I am thumbing through the latest MRC. Every other page has ads for DCC, and there is even an article about making slow starting even slower with DCC !! Gazing back at this huge layout (by far the largest I have ever attempted ), I think "would DCC really be easier on a layout this big ??" That is a serious question for a guy who has always been a block system user . So what do YOU all think...is DCC really easier, especially in N scale?? Have any of you changed your tune since the last time this came up?? Help...convince me one way or the other!! Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
Let me rephrase your question so that you can understand how it sounds to DCC literate people. Here is the question: "I have been a type writer user all my life, I am thinking of converting to word processing, is there any good reasons why I should?" Think that is crazy, well I had a boss who went out and got a "great" deal on an IBM selectric when I tried to convince him we needed a computer. By the way, he now owns a computer and realizes what a silly thing he did. The reality is that DCC is where model rail roading is going. Atlas has started installing DCC decoders as standard equipment, which I also feel is the future. If it is so obvious, why the hold backs? As you know, many modeler's are aging and don't want to go to the trouble of converting. I go to an HO layout every friday night with blocks and first generation infra red cab control. It is very very frustrating. Some blocks are like solving Chinese puzzle, especially when "grabber" blocks are involved. Some have spent half a lifetime learning all the electrical for their blocks and turnouts, and don't want to put the effort out for a new system. Some are afraid of new technology, you know, the ones who still don't know how to program a VCR. Some have a large number of engines and don't want to financially commit to decoding one hundred engines. Some feel it is "black magic," this from the lips of the main security computer guy of a large corporation. I would say that DCC involvement now is like getting into computers when DOS was the operating system available. DOS could be difficult to get used to, but once you understood it, it was simple. But like DOS, if you don't use certain commands a lot, you are doomed to looking them up in the manual. Eventually a smoother interphase will evolve. Some will read this and say the new system is already here, but this isn't the case yet. You either have hand controllers that are almost weapons and would make techno-babies proud, or a smaller controller that can do a thousand things, except you can only remember five of them. Some will tell you that DCC can be linked up with a computer and everything made easy, but I think the screen should be part of the purchase package and made much smaller, since we don't need a 15 inch screen to program decoders. For anyone new or back in the hobby, I tell them to pretend block wiring doesn't exist, except to isolate blocks of tracks to find shorts - so you don't have to look everywhere. For the electrically challenged new comer, DCC is a blessing compared to the telephone network wiring we have all seen in magazines or on layout tours, or on our own layout.
Hi John, From the people I have talked to, DCC sounds like the way to go. I guess the real problem I have with it for now is the cost of equiping over 100 locomotives. If you have the funds available, go for it, but get the best and do a lot of research to fit your needs. Hope this helps and good luck. Also, I have a Santa Fe work train I did years ago and I want to get rid of it, after all, this is RGN. Interested? ------------------ Rod v. B. Rio Grande iNdustries
To DCC or not to DCC? That is the question. I will agree that DCC will be the future of model railroading and it holds great promise. As with all quantum leaps in technology it does create problems with former technology. Retro fitting a large fleet of engines can be a daunting as well as expensive task. But an entire fleet need not be retrofitted all at once and this argument for not going DCC does not hold up very well as there are alternatives to converting an entire roster. However, I have heard some rather disturbing rumors about converting Atlas engines, including the newer ones that are DCC ready. This is in regards to damage to either the motor or DCC decoder. Supposedly, according to this version, Atlas has a similiar problem with their decoder equipped units but the consumer doesn't get to see them as quality control removes them before they get to market. Kato, for whatever reason, supposedly does not have this problem. Like I said this is what I heard as a rumor only although it did come from someone who is very much in favor of DCC and has been very active in trying to get our club to go DCC. I would think he would have no axe to grind. My question to the DCC'ers on this board is, have you heard this rumor? Does it have any validity? What has been your experience in equipping Atlas DCC ready engines with decoders? Thanks for your replies.
We have SD60's (4) and SD35's (a couple) and they are decoded. I think the decoder in the SD35 gave us problems, it had a bow in it and created contact problems. I can't remembe if we shimmied it from underneath on the roof, or if we just bent it back. But it is working fine now. As for the large fleet problems, I would suggest getting your DCC power pack, command station, throttles. Then in your next land fall of money do about 12 engines (your most frequently run ones). With visitors who are on your layout frequently, we have already experienced that problem. We have DCC but where we go to run doesn't. We aren't thrilled with the noise that analog engines make without DCC on DCC layouts. So it is always a debate with us to DCC a loco or not. If we set it up for our DCC layout, it limits us in running it on a non DCC layout. I have seen people bring goodies that have been DCC'd in HO scale as well, not happy with the running characteristics on nonDCC layouts. I would tell people with large layouts and fleets that if the problem is bad now, what will it be like ten years from now when it is even more predominate. I went to a train show here in Vancouver BC. We were buying an HO RDC, not DCC equiped. We wanted to hear it on a nonDCC layout. At the show, we really had to search to find a layout that wasn't running DCC. Tomorrow is here already, today! I can truly understand the reluctance on some with large layouts to convert, the cost is very high. You need more cabs, a ton of decoders, maybe reversing loop problems, lots of power and an understanding of a new technology. So I do empathize with you
John, in my opinion, since you are going to start a new layout, you should go with DCC. This way you can limit your locomotive purchasing to get everything converted at once. I have a 4x8 foot N scale layout, and I run DCC on it. The operations are virtually limitless. Helpers, MUs, getting Atlas, Kato, Life-Like, Bachmann, etc engines all running THE SAME SPEED!!!! And best of all, no blocks to throw, only turnouts to route the train. Once you're in, you're hooked. I have a question for you now, what size is your N scale layout going to be? By saying "empire" I think you will be much better off going to DCC. Now, as for the rumors about Atlas and decoder problems, are you sure the problems aren't in the people doing the installations? If ANY and I mean ANY part of the circuit board is in contact with the power (outside of the leads) then you get a short, which fries decoders AND motors at times. I have heard about poor operation, and this was due to the electrical pickup. Just build a small solder dome on the decoder leads at it will work fine (or shim it as mentioned above). And if Atlas is pulling locos for quality control reasons, GOOD! I'd like to get a working loco, but as long as I can fix it easily (solder dome) I'm happy. ------------------ Corey Lynch Pres - Rensselaer Model RR Society, NEB&W RR http://www.rpi.edu/~lynchc/Railfanning/railfanning.htm - My Site http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/ - NEB&W
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rgn1: Hi John, From the people I have talked to, DCC sounds like the way to go. I guess the real problem I have with it for now is the cost of equiping over 100 locomotives. If you have the funds available, go for it, but get the best and do a lot of research to fit your needs. Hope this helps and good luck. Also, I have a Santa Fe work train I did years ago and I want to get rid of it, after all, this is RGN. Interested? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure I'm interested, if the price is right !! As I told Corey, I'll need to get back with you AFTER Christmas, though. No bonus check this year from work Just e-mail me with your address so we can stay in touch!! Thanks!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
I have a 6' by 8' N gauge layout with all block system. I also have 2 reversing loops. I have a Tech ll duel control transformer and I really have to watch the polarity when running trains and it gets to be a hassle. If I had the finances I would change to DCC without batting an eye. Last May my wife and I made a trip to Oklohama to visit my Daughter and her family. They have a N gauge layout with DCC. We each had a cab control and I had a ball running my train through sidings when meeting other trains I loved it.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harron: John, in my opinion, since you are going to start a new layout, you should go with DCC. This way you can limit your locomotive purchasing to get everything converted at once. I have a 4x8 foot N scale layout, and I run DCC on it. The operations are virtually limitless. Helpers, MUs, getting Atlas, Kato, Life-Like, Bachmann, etc engines all running THE SAME SPEED!!!! And best of all, no blocks to throw, only turnouts to route the train. Once you're in, you're hooked. I have a question for you now, what size is your N scale layout going to be? By saying "empire" I think you will be much better off going to DCC. Now, as for the rumors about Atlas and decoder problems, are you sure the problems aren't in the people doing the installations? If ANY and I mean ANY part of the circuit board is in contact with the power (outside of the leads) then you get a short, which fries decoders AND motors at times. I have heard about poor operation, and this was due to the electrical pickup. Just build a small solder dome on the decoder leads at it will work fine (or shim it as mentioned above). And if Atlas is pulling locos for quality control reasons, GOOD! I'd like to get a working loco, but as long as I can fix it easily (solder dome) I'm happy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The "empire" consists of a 10 x 22 foot "L" along the wall, with two 4 x 8 foot peninsulas. Thus the whole layout looks like an "E." There will be a dual main line, looped for continuous operation when needed. Turnouts at either end lead to a turn table on one end and a Y on the other so I can have some point to point operational fun. One of the peninsulas will be set up to serve coal mines and an oil field, so lots of switching...Or so the dream is laid out!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
John, I have been a 'block' user for over forty years, but have finally succumbed to the lure of DCC (Before the bill for retro-fitting my increasing roster of locomotives gets too big!) If I were just beginning a layout, I would unhesitatingly go for DCC. As someone has said, once you try it - you are hooked
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alan: John, I have been a 'block' user for over forty years, but have finally succumbed to the lure of DCC (Before the bill for retro-fitting my increasing roster of locomotives gets too big!) If I were just beginning a layout, I would unhesitatingly go for DCC. As someone has said, once you try it - you are hooked <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Alan, you and I are in a bit of the same boat...with me it would be like teaching an old dog new tricks ...yet, the thought of ALL of those blocks on this new layout blows my mind !! Of course, for me at this point, finances are the bottom line. I can't fathom still needing the basics (more track and roadbed etc.) AND going DCC . And yet, if it is as good as everyone makes it sound, there would be more fun and less work involved in running the layout later on... Since I was HO for many years, my stable of N locomotives is quite small for the time being. Perhaps that is the best argument I have yet heard...get in on the ground floor as it were...Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
I am in the early stages of designing my new N scale layout and it will be DCC from the GitGo. Even if I do have 60 locos to convert. ------------------ Catt!#118 - Moderator and A freelancer to the end
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Catt: I am in the early stages of designing my new N scale layout and it will be DCC from the GitGo. Even if I do have 60 locos to convert. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK, but WHY? What is the magic that would make some men spend hours implanting tiny circuit boards in a fleet of engines...Is it really that good?? I hope so because you guys almost have me convinced!! Happy Modeling!! John ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!! [This message has been edited by JCater (edited 19 December 2000).]
JC.. to me, Im building my new layout as ya know, Im going with Block system.. 1) Cost 2) I understand it! I no doubt will be corrected as there is a 90% chance Im wrong, this was explained to me by Toms Dodgey warehouse ltd co.etc etc.. DCC as I understand it you program the loco to do its thing? and then sit back and watch it go round...? wheres the fun? programming it? wow... do that at work, thats not relaxing. as I say Im probably wrong but if not.. Gimme a controller and a switch panel, I want to control my train! *flame suit on* ------------------ CK& Bird Butt Railroad - Its a coal mining region of a place far far away, that shares rails with SP, NS... Era: Time stands still round these parts, and we have everything from Steam, to Diesels...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by virtual-bird: Gimme a controller and a switch panel, I want to control my train! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> More like control your track. You'll have to throw block after block to "control your train". With DCC, you really control the TRAIN. Meets, saw-bys, fly-bys, all without throwing a block toggle. John, all I can tell you is that you can't fully fathom the difference between DCC and DC control until you run DCC. So try and find somebody local (a club, perhaps) that is running DCC and see if you can check it out. Another thing, people say the cost of DCC is prohibitive, but as a layout gets larger, the price of toggle switches goes up too, doesn't it? You figure 50 blocks at 2 bucks a switch and you're already at 100 bucks, and the Atlas System isn't far from that. Plus two reverse loops, a wye, and a turntable. Those are a PAIN to wire. Tony's sells a nice reversing-circuit breaker (auto reset) that does this for you automatically! And switching, boy do I blow people's minds when I run an S-4 down one track pushing a caboose, while an 0-8-0 comes down the same track from the other end of the yard (that's right, heading in the opposite direction on the same track. I stop the S-4, and back off while the 0-8-0 couples on, and pulls the caboose to the rear of a train. And did I mention I'm doing this from one handheld controller? If this doesn't sway you, then you have to try it for yourself before you make a decision (benchwork has to go in first, right?). I had to forego a couple of engines while I got set up, but it was worth it. ------------------ Corey Lynch Pres - Rensselaer Model RR Society, NEB&W RR http://www.rpi.edu/~lynchc/Railfanning/railfanning.htm - My Site http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/ - NEB&W
Hey Bird!! Long time no talk!! How is that layout coming along these days ?? You and I have, of course, had this same discussion several times. Sounds like we come from the same back ground . But I tell ya, what Corey and the other folks are saying seems to make sense to me. Teaching an old dog new tricks ain't easy, but if I can run trains in opposite directions on the same track, do tricky switching manuvers etc. without throwing a billion switches to get it done, why then I guess I'm interested. I guess that's one of the things I forgot about this hobby...there is always something new to learn, and thats not a bad thing !! Happy Modeling !! John P.S. You haven't e-mailed any funnies to me lately! ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by virtual-bird: DCC as I understand it you program the loco to do its thing? and then sit back and watch it go round...? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not exactly. DCC assigns each locomotive a digital ID number. Your controller(s) have small LCD displays on them. When you select a locomotive with your controller, you are controlling that loco only. You can control multiple locos (possibly hundreds, depending on system) from one throttle. Locos only recognize signals attached to their personal digital ID number and respond only to them. There are no toggle switches, or blocks. In fact, there may only be 2 wires going to your track to control your ENTIRE layout and ENTIRE fleet of locomotives. Want to have a friend help? No problem, just plug in another throttle to the command station and away ya go! You don't program the locomotive and watch it go. You control them all with one throttle and 2 wires. You can even hook up a laptop computer and run switches automatically. If you want, you CAN automate the railroad... but you're right... where's the fun in that? D6
I have already purchased a Digitrax Chief system, and I have been purchasing decoders regularly. And I don't have a layout yet! When I first got into this hobby 3 years ago, I couldn't even fathom why anyone would ever run the 'olde way.' ------------------ Mark Weiher Trainboard Member #60 Frequent Visitor to The Loop ATSF/BNSF Fan & Modeller
Lets see, some one here stated that having the train run by itself would be no fun. Well I would like to challenge that scenario. Okay, the boys have all called in sick (or snowed in) to tonights operating session. There is only one problem; you want to run trains. But where is the fun operating them all on your own. Well you fortunately remember you just finished hooking up your DCC to your computer and everything is in place. So you go to your layout and program in a passenger train to run and stop at various areas while you switch using two locals. Somehow having that passenger train do its thing - through your program on the computer - brings the whole show to life. And you say to yourself, am I ever glad I never went down the block and toggle switch road. Merry Christmas from Rick and Dane Nicholson Hometown to BC Rail
OK, So how hard are the decoders to install?? I am an electronics idiot, frankly, (even if I can wire and run a multi-block railroad ) and when it comes to fine-tuned soldering, etc. well lets just say I have two left thumbs . I understand the business of not contacting the motor, but how many motors and decoders will I go through before I figure out HOW to not contact the motor etc...?? ------------------ The Santa Fe and Southwestern, Chief of the Southwest!!
