Log in or Sign up

From Rochelle IL and doing Whitcomb Research

machinehead61 Jun 13, 2012

Page 13 of 17

machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Fascinating and some what hard to understand the British slang and its meaning. I got home late from work tonight so I haven't much time to ask questions but will have more tomorrow. Thank you very much Chen.

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 10, 2014

#241
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

In the World War 2 Railway Study Group Bulletin for June 2013 (Vol. 23 No. 3) there is a short article by the late Wynford Fear, a military locomotive driver in WW2, who describes the technical aspects of the Whitcombs, and also comments one their usefulness:

These locos were very good for the job they were meant for.
...
These machines were very good but they ran for 24 hours per day and most were recording as
much as 10,000 miles per week. After two years the cylinder heads were cracking. Attempts were
made to weld them but without success. If the powers-that-be had been prepared to put in new
engines instead of the worn-out Buda diesels they would have run for many more years.
Click to expand...

Of course, the Italian State Railways (FS) did exactly that, with the expected results.

melling, Jan 10, 2014

#242
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

melling said: ↑

In the World War 2 Railway Study Group Bulletin for June 2013 (Vol. 23 No. 3) there is a short article by the late Wynford Fear, a military locomotive driver in WW2, who describes the technical aspects of the Whitcombs, and also comments one their usefulness:

Of course, the Italian State Railways (FS) did exactly that, with the expected results.
Click to expand...

I haven't heard of similar problems with the GE and Alco units which also were sent over seas during the war.

In another forum I was told this by a gent who helped restore and operate a 65-ton Whitcomb from WW II :

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33922&start=45

This thread has been very interesting. From my experience, the 65-ton Military centercab is a rather interesting beast. They had two (2) Buda DCS-1879 engines for a "rating" of 650hp and were MU-capable. The engines were found to be of poor design, mostly due to insufficient coolant flow through the heads, leading to head cracking. They employed the "Lanova" principle for combustion, complete with a separate energy cell. Due to the size of the engines and the generators, 2 banks of batteries, each being 32-volts, were needed to operate the starting winding and start the engines. The contactor arrangement is somewhat unique in the starting/charging circuit. Rated top speed of 46 mph, I was told they were run in multiple on coal trains in Germany during the war, not so much for the horsepower but to ensure the train made the terminal due to probable engine failure.

The shot of the one up on blocks reminded me of a motor swap we did several years ago. This work will need to be repeated. Note the locomotive in the background up on blocking and jacks. The truck is rather basic but the large wheels (42") and fact that it is a fabricated truck is a testament to the Whitcomb engineers.

Also, back after the Whitcomb arrived, I had occasion to speak with a fine gentleman at the remains of Baldwin who indicated that they were still supplying some repair parts for Whitcombs still in service. This was circa 1987.
Click to expand...

The story of the multiple unit coal trains came from a guy who was in the USATC and stationed there in WWII. After the 602 arrived and we were working on it, several people showed up who had been in military service during WWII and told us some stories. A few wrote letters of their tour of duty and one guy had some photos he shared with me. The story was that they would MU 3 of the 65-tonners together as they were certain at least one would fail enroute. Once, after we had the 602 up and running well, we figured out why the Germans surrendered with 3 of these things bearing down on them at full-bore! Those Buda's make a lot of noise. And to start one is much more than just closing the battery switch and pushing a button.
Click to expand...

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 11, 2014

#243
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Here is the website of the railroad museum that operates the only Whitcomb 65-DE-19a that still has its original Buda engines in it.

http://www.kemptontrain.com/equipment/

And some information on these units:

http://www.jeff-z.com/wks/locoroster/602/rhp.html

L&NE #601 was constructed by the Whitcomb Locomotive Company, of Rochelle, IL, at the time a subsidiary of Baldwin Locomotive Works. It was built as part of an order for 99 similar locomotives for the US Army Transportation Corps in 1944. These locomotives were numbered in the 8400-8498 series, bearing Whitcomb serial numbers 60406-60504. They were classified by Whitcomb as 65-DE-19a, the 65 standing for the gross weight in tons, the DE standing for diesel electric drive, and the 19a believed to bear a relationship concerning the production run number from the first run of that particular model. The Army specification called for a locomotive to be able to run on any european main line, have a top speed of at least 45 mph, and must be capable pf operating in multiple unit with similar locomotives. L&NE #601 was constructed with serial number 60458, USATC #8452, re-numbered by the Military Railway Service upon arrival in Italy to #1362. While in Italy, it was used in a variety of service, ranging from yard duty to operating in MU with other Whitcombs on coal trains.

WK&S #602 had a similar history at the time of construction. It was constructed with serial number 60473 and bore the number USATC #8467. While no definite information has surfaced, it is believed that #602 was shipped to France or Belgium for use during the war. These locomotives were shipped overseas in three large crates, one each for each assembled truck and one large crate containing the locomotive frame and carbody, totally assembled. From information in a Whitcomb locomotive manual, apparently the locomotives were equipped with standard AAR couplers for shipment to the Port of Embarkation, removed prior to shipment and european couples applied upon delivery in Europe.

Whitcomb constructed the locomotives in accordance with standard locomotive practice for the 1940's era. Two Buda (correctly pronounced beauda) DCS-1879, 283 HP at 1200 RPM, engines were used for prime movers in each locomotive. The horsepower rating of this particular engine has been misstated in various publications but the 283 HP appears in both Whitcomb manuals and official US Army publications. These engines were supercharged and had 1879 cubic inch displacement. They utilized the "Lanova" principle of combustion that relies on an internal "energy cell" to provide complete combustion of diesel fuel oil. The electrical equipment was supplied by Westinghouse Electric & Manufacturing Co. and consisted of two 197-A main generators, four 970-A traction motors and the various standard Westinghouse control equipment. With a 14:72 gear ratio and 42 inch diameter wheels, the locomotive had a maximum speed limit of 46½ MPH, quite fast for a military locomotive of the time. As was the practice in early diesel electric locomotives, the main generators were located away from the cab, with the radiators placed close to the cab. It was believed at the time that this provided for the cooling air to be blown away from the electrical cabinet and away from the cab in an effort to keep the cab cool. It was later proved that running the main electrical cables through the engine rooms was far more detrimental to the life of the locomotive than the benefits of a cooler cab.

The locomotives served the military well during World War II. Whitcomb received an Army-Navy "E" Award in January, 1944, for outstanding production of these military locomotives. These locomotives were used to pull the first train into the city of Rome after it was taken from the Germans. They pulled the first train across the Rhine River after the Corp of Engineers rebuilt a bombed out bridge. Whitcomb 65 tonners pulled the first train into Paris after it was liberated by the Allies and pulled the first supply trains and hospital trains into Belgium after that country was taken back by the Allies. While they were cantankerous and somewhat a maintenance headache, particularly the Buda diesel engines, they ran and often ran well. I spoke with an ex-MRS locomotive mechanic several years ago and he provided some interesting information about his tour of duty in Italy. The Buda diesel engines had heads that were prone to cracking due to a design flaw that provided too little cooling across the length of the head. As locomotives were laid up for relatively minor repairs, the mechanics would scrounge parts from the offending locomotive, mostly the heads, rendering the locomotive inoperative. The mechanic also stated that many of the trains were equipped with at least two, and sometimes three, Whitcombs for fear of breakdowns out on the road. He said they could pull well and were liked on coal train duty.

After VE day in 1945, the USATC decided that many of these Whitcombs were worth rehabilitating and being shipped to the Far East to fight in the war against Japan. 118 of these locomotives were shipped back to the US. By the time the locomotives arrived in the US, the hostilities ended in Japan. They arrived at Hawkins Point, near Baltimore, MD, and were stored pending disposition. With the war over, the US government disposed of these locomotives beginning in 1947. Most of the locomotives were sold through brokers to industrial operations or shortlines. The only modification that occurred to these locomotives was the removal of the european couples and the installation of bolt-on AAR coupler pockets and couplers. Whitcomb, however, repurchased some of the locomotives. These locomotives were rebuilt and reclassified to 70-DE-26. These rebuilt locomotives now weighed 70 tons and were equipped with wider cabs, side walkway extensions, side handrails, a larger oil reservoir, and spring-equipped draft gear couplers. Most of the rebuilds also had their MU gear removed.

L&NE #601 was purchased from the US government in February, 1947. The locomotive was not modified to a 70 ton configuration and retained its' as-built 65 ton appearance. It was purchased to replace the steam locomotive assigned to the Alpha Portland Cement mill in Martins Creek, PA. The Alpha mill contracted with the L&NE for switching duties and the L&NE thought it would be cheaper to use a diesel. The steam locomotive would require deadhead moves back and forth to Tadmor Yard for any type of servicing, let alone for monthly inspections. Also, the L&NE needed to have someone watch the steam locomotive during times of inactivity. All of this added up to unnecessary expenses that could be saved with the use of a diesel. Apparently, the benefits of diesel power through the use of #601 convinced management to pursue total dieselization in late 1947. #601 continued to be used until sometime in 1954. It was then sold to Panther Valley Coal Company in December, 1954 for use in the Lansford, PA area. It is unknown to the author when 601 was finally scrapped.

Several years ago, I spoke with ex-L&NE engineer Dick Powell about #601. He said that his first job upon qualifying as an engineer was running #601 at Martins Creek. Most of the work at Alpha consisted of spotting coal hoppers on the coal trestle. This operation included a procedure that, while it worked, was less than desirable. The locomotive would couple up to three hoppers, the limit of the trestle, and back up the "Woods Track" north of the Mill. The #601 would then "give it hell" and push the cars up the ramp. When the engine reached the top of the incline, the engineer would "dump" the air brakes, stopping the train before it flew off the end of the trestle. Mr. Powell never said whether a train went off the end! He said he liked running the locomotive because it was so much cleaner than the steam locomotives. He also remembers running the engine over to Tadmor for it's monthly inspection.

WK&S #602 has a much different past. Upon return to the US, it was repurchased by Whitcomb and rebuilt to a 70 ton configuration. Gulf Oil Corp. purchased two of these locomotives around 1950 for use at its Point Arthur, Texas refinery. They were numbered 7 and 8. Sometime around 1960, #7 was shipped to Philadelphia, PA to replace a smaller locomotive. It was used to move salt and catalyst cars along Pennypacker Avenue and the package department's black oil rack. In 1979, #8 was shipped to Philadelphia. This was done because parts were becoming scarce, and hence expensive, for Whitcomb locomotives. #8 would be used as a parts engine and never operated in Philadelphia. In 1983, #7 was out of service for an extended period of time and Gulf rented another locomotive. Finally, in 1984, Gulf purchased a Trackmobile and retired #7 permanently. Both locomotives were subsequently donated to the Cornell Railway Historical Society of Cornell, NY, for preservation. Unfortunately, the cost of moving both engines was well beyond the means of the Society and they were offered to the Anthracite Railroads Historical Society, due to the L&NE/Whitcomb connection. In 1987, the WK&S was approached about the possibility of leasing #7. #8 would be scrapped in place as it was partially disassembled. Any salvageable parts from #8 could be removed before scrapping. It was agreed to paint the locomotive in an L&NE paint scheme and renumber the locomotive 602. It was moved to Kempton in the fall of 1988 and rehabilitated for operation in 1989.
Click to expand...

I hope that our town can save the 65-DE-19a that was retired in Mason City, Iowa and move it back to Rochelle where these were built. The Buda engines were replaced with Cummings but I would love to see it brought back home.

I have located and interviewed Bertrum Cote who worked at the Whitcomb factory during WW II until drafted in late 1944. He stated that the Army and Navy had representatives at the factory who upon successful trial running each unit would accept each locomotive which then would be disassembled before shipping. He still lives in Rochelle and is a great guy.

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 11, 2014

#244
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

This is a photo from the Army-Navy "E" award ceremony at Rochelle. On December 31, 1943 the War Department conferred the Army-Navy Production Award ("E" award) to the Whitcomb Locomotive Company and the presentation ceremony was held in the Rochelle plant on January 26, 1944.

Bert Cote is on the right holding the flag.

He said that he would run each locomotive for 15 miles to check for leakes and make sure everything worked. Then he was drafted and served in the 2nd Armored Division ( "Hell on Wheels" ) over in Europe in a half-track during WW II.

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 11, 2014

#245
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

Below is a rather poor reproduction made by the late Paul Cotterell from an unknown source, showing three Whitcombs, probably in storage or under repair, at the Ez-Zib running shed (engine house), probably c. 1944

I reviewed the surviving Palestine Railways Working Time Tables. The Diesels (as they are referred to there) only appear in WTT No. 3, which came into force on 1 May 1944, and are still there in ammendments issued during December of the same year, but not in WTT No. 4 on 1 November 1945.

On the Haifa-Lydda section of the PR Main Line, they were allowed 400 (metric) tons on goods (freight) timings singly or 760 tons double-headed, provided vacuum braking was in operation on at least 5 wagons (freight cars) otherwise 600 tons. They were not normally allowed to run on passenger timings, and under no circumstances were they allowed to double-head with a steam engine.
The values given for the Haifa-Ez-Zib section of the HBT-Line are the same, except that there is no differentiation between passenger and goods timings.
They are not mentioned on any other standard-gauge section of the time tables, nor in the table summarizing locomotive types and their leading particulars.

melling, Jan 11, 2014

#246
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Wonderful photograph. You are providing information unobtainable here in the states. I definitely want to include this in the book.

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 12, 2014

#247
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

Steve,

You are can certainly use the info I post in your book, with proper credit to The Israel Railway Museum and respective photographers (where applicable). I will post more photos when I find them in our archive.

Please note that the WTT summary I posted is definitely not the whole story - I already posted evidence that the Whitcombs where regularly used on the other PR main lines, i.e. from Lydda to Jerusalem and across the Sinai Peninsula to Kantara East on the Suez Canal.

Chen

melling, Jan 12, 2014

#248
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

I just talked to the California State Railway Museum in Sacremento and told them about your information and photos and they would love to see them. So if it is ok with you can I forward the information to them - with proper credit going to The Israel Railway Museum of course ? They have the entire record and files of all the Whitcomb production.

746th Railway Operating Battalion, Germany c. 1945

Steve

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2014

machinehead61, Jan 13, 2014

#249
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

By all means!

Chen

melling, Jan 14, 2014

#250
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Just recieved this email from CSRM:

Series 1. CARD FILES
The Whitcomb Locomotive Company, and later the Baldwin Locomotive Works, maintained card files to record information about each locomotive ordered. The Card Files contain the following key pieces of information:
Serial number: Whitcomb assigned a unique serial number (or construction number) to each locomotive constructed. The serial number was also used to identify an accompanying bill of material.
PSO number: In 1931, after taking over the Whitcomb Locomotive Company, Baldwin also assigned a PSO (Product Sales Order) number to each order. The PSO number may refer to a single locomotive or to a group of similar locomotives ordered at the same time.
Photograph number: Beginning in 1931, the cards may include the builder’s photograph number.
Specification number: The format for specification numbers is ## - [locomotive type] - ##.
The locomotive types are:
Gasoline-mechanical
Electric storage battery
Electric trolley
Combined electric storage battery and electric trolley
Diesel-mechanical and diesel-hydraulic
Gasoline-electric
Diesel-electric
The cards may also contain other information about a specific locomotive such as the purchaser, its location, date order was received, date order was shipped, purchase price, gauge, dimensions, locomotive type, order cancellations, re-sale and returns for refurbishment.
The CARD FILES are arranged into the following subseries:
Subseries 1. Serial numbers
Subseries 2. Product Sales Orders
Subseries 3. Locomotive types
Subseries 4. Orders received
Subseries 5. Orders shipped
Subseries 1. Serial Numbers [BOX 1]
Arranged by serial number. Includes purchaser, location, engine class and weight. Specification numbers first appear with serial number 40001.
Subseries 2. Product Sales Orders [BOX 1]
Arranged by Product Sales Order number. Includes the PSO, purchaser, weight, class, and sometimes the serial number and specification number.
Subseries 3. Locomotive Types [BOXES 1-12]
Arranged by locomotive type and then by serial number.
Gasoline-mechanical, 1-1299, 11300-13247 (1906-1948) [BOX 1-8]
Electric storage battery, 1401-2081 (1914-1945) [BOX 8-10]
Electric trolley, 20001-20046 (1922-1930) [BOX 10]
Combined electric storage battery and electric trolley, 30001-30007 (1922-1924) [BOX 10]
Diesel-mechanical and diesel-hydraulic, 40002-40743 (1929-1951) [BOX 10-11]
Gasoline-electric, 50001-50010 (1929-1935) [BOX 11]
Diesel-electric, 60001-61197 (1936-1951) [BOX 11]
Electric trolley, electric storage battery, gasoline-electric (Westinghouse), 80000-80594 (1942-1951) [BOX 12]
Mack International Motor Truck Corp., gas mechanical and diesel electric locomotives (1936) [BOX 12]
Motor cars, 100000-100013 (1946) [BOX 12]
Milwaukee Locomotive Manufacturing Company locomotives, M 740 – M 981-W (1933-1934) [BOX 12]
Plymouth Locomotive Works, 615, 996 + miscellaneous (1925-1928)[BOX 12]
Whitcomb Lehmer road shoulder finishing machines, 0200-0210 (1930-1931) [BOX 12]
Miscellaneous cards relating to components [BOX 12]
Subseries 4. Orders Received [BOX 13]
Arranged by manufacturer and the chronologically by the order date. Includes order number, PSO number, purchaser, locomotive class, gauge, and price.
Whitcomb: February 1918 - February 1953
Westinghouse: 80007-80610, October 1942 – December 1952
Subseries 5. Orders Shipped [BOX 14]
Arranged by manufacturer and then chronologically by the order date. Includes serial number, purchaser, weight, wheel arrangement, locomotive type and price.
Whitcomb: January 1918 – December 1952
Westinghouse: July 1943 – December 1952

I aked them about why the Milwaukee and Plymouth files were in the Whitcomb records.

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 15, 2014

#251
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

The linked (and previously-unseen) selection of photos from WW2 Egypt/Libya also has a very nice shot of a (brand-new?) Whitcomb, 33 seconds into the presentation:

[video=youtube;ieGvXfGI8PM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieGvXfGI8PM[/video]

Notice it has an American-shaped cab, which is not shown in any of the known diagrams.

Chen

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2014

melling, Jan 19, 2014

#252
paperkite TrainBoard Member

935

35

12

Great stuff , thanks for sharing !!!

paperkite, Jan 19, 2014

#253
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Great video, wish I had video making skills. Thank you.

Is the Whitcomb photo available?

Steve

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2014

machinehead61, Jan 20, 2014

#254
BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

67,655

23,076

653

Off topic- Interesting bridge work. It would be fun to see that project in video. But most probably no such thing exists.

BoxcabE50, Jan 20, 2014

#255
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

I have not yet contacted the owners of the photos (there is an email address on the web page) - there are many other very interesting photos for me in the collection!

Chen

melling, Jan 20, 2014

#256
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Looking forward to seeing all of this new history!

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 21, 2014

#257
melling TrainBoard Member

18

0

6

I found another WW2 Whitcomb photo in the Israel Railway Museum's archive, this being by Arthur Booker, and shows two of the engines (note different cab profiles) crossing a bridge in Lebanon on the then-new Haifa-Beirut-Tripoli Line with a freight composed of American designed and built cars (of USATC MEF types):

Chen

melling, Jan 21, 2014

#258
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

Chen, it is safe to say that you have made it possible for the first time to see these rare photographs on our continent.

THANK YOU !!!

It makes me wonder if more photographs are buried in museums in Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany and England.

I've contacted the War Museum in London but only a fraction of their photographs are digitized. Unless one goes to London and the museum to search their archives, I'll never know.

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 22, 2014

#259
machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

224

0

9

BoxcabE50 said: ↑

Off topic- Interesting bridge work. It would be fun to see that project in video. But most probably no such thing exists.
Click to expand...

Actually I did find another series of photos showing the construction of a replacement bridge before a Whitcomb graced it with the first crossing.

746th Railway Battalion if I remember right.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1155...544476866841256427/albums/5687955407915461969

Steve

machinehead61, Jan 22, 2014

#260

(You must log in or sign up to reply here.)

Page 13 of 17

Share This Page