Bob, The rewards and benefits of DCC became very apparent this last weekend. The learning curve...well...let's just say I'm down at the bottom looking up. Looks like I will need a rope thrown down, to help pull me up. Steve, on the other hand, is way ahead of me as he has been reading every book and written article in the model train wig wags. You see it's like this...we all get along with a little help from our friends. cute: Thanks...again!
I couldn't agree more. I believe, I shared where we started out the day at a point furthest from a drop wire. On that same track Terry, demonstrated how a short would show-up on the control unit. He shorted the track out and the Digi., did what it's supposed to do. Blew the place to smitherreins. No it just shut down and the screen showed us a series of numbers. We got back to operating after the smoke cleared. The smoke from one of my older Bachmann 4-8-4's. I was demoing how best to perform a quick move of the torch...kaboom! All you need is a fourth of July cherry bomb. Another topic for another thread and time. End of day for me...more tomorrow.
Rick, I'm glad you are excited about DCC running on your layout. I too am a old school guy with block control except I use rotary switches instead of DPDT's. My main problem with DCC is the cost. It would cost me well over $1000 to convert my railroad at this time. However, I am experimenting with radio control which means that I don't have to have ANY wiring at all to power locomotives (the motor is isolated from the frame and a on-board battery pack is used to produce 11.7V max). I get around 6-8 hours operation between charges. My advantage is that I model in HO and can use a dummy loco to carry the on-board battery and r/c board to run the engine. No shorts, no reverse loop wiring (I don't have any, but some folks do), no wiring at all unless you want signals. Fortunately the Van Buren sub is "dark" territory. At some point battery technology will allow for smaller batteries that could be used in N scale. IMO then and only then can you have truly "wireless" operation.
Mopman, I'm excited that it works on my layout because, everything I heard about DCC required household wiring 14 or 18 gauge wiring, to run your trains. It appears that's not so. I may bump into something later, down the road, that causes me a problem. I may have to re-think that. We shall see! After all I'm at the starting gate, of this learning curve. Sunday we spent the better part of five hours running DCC and didn't have any problems. I even checked my wiring and track for heat and nothing. The only heat was the sun beating down on the roof of my tin shed. Fall has dropped those protective leaves off the trees and until the temperature drops, the morning sun can cause heat damage to the track work, in the helix. Like you I'm worried about the expense. I'm on a set income and I hear we won't be getting any cost of living raises for the next two years. Never mind that the cost of just about everything around me has gone up almost 20% this year. I wonder, just how long do our elected off...er's expect to be in office? So, this isn't going to be pleasant, for awhile. Best news here is...DCC will work on layouts wired... similarly to mine. You may be onto something here. I've always liked the idea of wireless. I'm co-chairing a church's sound system and we operate a lot of wireless equipment. You ought to see our invoices for batteries. Generally, we get about three hours of life out of each battery. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions. Thanks for the come back.
Minimum requirements are not the same as best practices. What you've described with those numbers there are best practices. Actually, what you did is pretty close to the best practices. You're smallest wire is only for the shortest runs. Since resistance is a function of both wire size and length, a short run of 22 gauge wire might have the same resistance as a long run of 14 gauge wire. As long as they don't both add up to too much, you'll get the required voltage at the track. But I hope no one misreads this thread to think they can use 22 gauge wire for long buses and not experience high voltage drop. In DCC that would mean loss of signal and attendant problems.
Agreed! Agreed! I do agree! The thing is, on mine I have a 14 gauge bus that runs around to my control panels and that is plural, as there is more then one stretched out and around the center of the layout. The wire runs from the DPDT toggle switches to the track, at the shortest are 1 to 2 foot runs served by 20 or 22 gauge wire. The longest wire runs is served by 18 gauge wire at approximately 4 to 6 feet. To help clarify, the control panels are located within feet of the tracks they serve. I have pictures of my work and if you are interested and send me your private e-mail I will send you pictures. Now, you need to know the control panels are not permanent as I was planning on putting together a map control panel with switch selectors, activated by buttons. Now then, this may change...not entirely, but some aspects of it may change.
Here's another headline for the HO guys and gals. Reported, that there is another layout in the Big Bear Mountains, (San Bernardino Mountains to be politically correct) that is a plug and play model railroad. DCC Taking Over Mountain Mans Railroad.cute: Steve, hooked up his Prodigy equipment to his HO layout. Wired with an 18 gauge wire and utilizing DPDT toggles, in order to operate Cab A and Cab B. I just got back from visiting with Steve and I can testify to the following: I saw with my own eyes a DCC locomotive make the rounds on his layout, while operating off a wireless Prodigy, MRC control unit. One benefit I noted: As with mine...I've never seen his or my trains operate as smoothly, without hesitation and the constant stuttering present on both layouts, especially at slow speed while operating analog DC. I attribute that to the constant 12 volt A.C. current that is on line, at all times, a true constant. The locomotives shoes / wheels are hot and nothing other then a penny on the track, is going to get in the way, I said with a big satisfied grin. Of course the penny is outlawed...we don't need something shorting out the works. Counting: We can account for two layouts, that DCC works on. Wired similarily with DPDT toggles, Cab A and Cab B. Just plug in and play. Do you think there is something to all of this?
Review: On Steve's and my layouts we practice the same construction methods or rules. 1. All rail joiners are soldered. 2. All wire drops are soldered to the rail and the wire gauge may vary between 22 and 20 gauge. 3. I use 14 gauge from the transformer to the control panel. Steve uses 18 gauge to the control panel. 4. The runs from the control panel to the furthest point out is 2-4 feet on Steve's and 4-6 feet on mine. We use 22 or 20 gauge wire on the short 2 foot runs. On a run longer then 2 feet we use 18 gauge wire. 5. All wire joints or splices are soldered. On Steve's layout he is able to make a full run without splicing in extra wire. 6. Each block is approximately 6 to 9 feet long with one (1) wire drop. Neither one of us, has found it necessary to add more wire drops and it works well with DCC. 7. No measurable heat detected during the time of operation. Wires, cool. Track, cool. The locomotive electric motor, moderate heat detected... similar to heat present with analog DC operations. We are both floating along on cloud nine. Never in our wildest dreams or spaced out imagination did we figure that DCC would work on our layouts. We were sure we would have to RE-WIRE. For now... it appears, we won't have to. Now, I ask...is this fun? Must remember to change signature...grin! .... There that's better.
Rick, congrats man! That's awesome! :thumbs_up: With the amount of track you have on your layout, you'll be running a bunch of trains at once I bet! Yeah, the learning curve is pretty steep in the beginning, but getting the "basics" down is actually quite easy. Welcome to the world of DCC! Mike
Thank-you! What a learning curve. I played with Steve's wireless hand held. Hey, I learned how to turn the light on and off. Not bad, not bad at all.
Terry, All true. You need to know. On Steve's layout, he hooked up his wireless Prodigy and the locomotive (you hard wired a decoder in) pulled out nice and smooth. Operating without incident around his layout. We read the accompanying instruction booklet and found you can use a DPDT reversing switch in conjunction with a reversing loop. We gave it a go and to our surprise....it worked. Shock and awe...but I'm getting tired of picking my teeth up off the floor...grin! This much good news, all at the same time and the accompanying angina...well...you think about it. LOL On my layout I have two reversing loops, one wye and a turntable...( turntable not yet installed). Why, I don't know but what would a railroad be without it. I can answer that...a useless loopity loop, teeny poppers model railroad. rolleyes: Rolling my eyes! LOL You can always spot the inexperienced model rails when they say "Take out the reverse loop". No fun at all. Truth, is we must each move through the learning curves one at a time. And, it's ok to be inexperienced. I was and in some cases STILL AM! Darn it! Terry, not a good idea to solder your fingers together...hee hee...grab the handle, grab the handle. That had to hurt. To all tuned in here, This has been fun and as new reports come in, as I climb up this new learning curve, I will bring further news and advisments to this thread. Feel free to jump in, add a thought or go negative on me. It's all about freedom of speech...you know. Unless the moderators see otherwise...grin! Do Have Fun!
It's time to get'r done! Thanks Bob, And that goes for all of us...Yes we can! So, get out there...build that layout, wire it in, and add the newest gadget with all the literal... bells, whistles, engine noise and radio chatter to your layout. Yes you can.....:lightning: Bob said. wink:
Rick: There's a good article article on entry level DCC in The January-February 2110 issue of N Scale Magazine. I received my copy yesterday. This might interest you.
Here's another good read for you about DCC. You can download it from Tonys Trains. It's a "DCC Primer For Beginners". It was written several years ago but there's lots of good basic info that you could refer to. http://tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm Have fun.....
When I stared my DAV&P layout it was DC with cabs and blocks. After I added the DCC OI kept the block control, and boy has it been handy. I can turn off sections of the layout to work on it or stalls in the roundhouse. It gets really noisy when you have 3 or more steamers sitting in the roundhouse all randomly making noise.
Originally I did address this, just not in as much detail. Read on. I do agree and saw the wiring I have in place as being a potential make or break situation. On Analog DC, I do run more then one train at a time. Most of my trains run with three engine lash-ups. I've been known to run three to four freight trains of 30 to 40 cars in length. All from one transformer. I have no problems with either of my analog transformers. No loss in power noted. Little to no heat is noted or created. I'm not one of those who sits and let's trains just run and run and run around and around and around. They make the route and then return back into the staging yard while other trains take turn about running the route. Not to say it happens this way all the time. I have entertained friends by taking several trains out at one time and let them run the route as we watch to see who catches up first. I've also been known to put one in the hole while the other faster train passes by and then engage the train in the hole...bringing it back out on the main. Loads of fun with little to no problems...derails perhaps. Your advice is well taken and yes, I do agree that larger wires would be the better choice. Still, I find it awesome that we have the ability to use the smaller gauge wires and IT WORKS!wink: You can't get around the facts.
Update Terry, To this date the locomotive you hard wired, is still pulling freight cars around Steve's layout. No problems with your wiring it in and GET THIS. Because of your demo, he has wired in four other diseasels (spelling intended). They all run sweet. That was...until his train had a car derail in the tunnel. Then we went into panic mode. There's a thread out there somewhere where I share this experience. Steve and Stubby found two MRC Prodigy units over at the Barstow, Arts, Crafts and Train Show. I've wired in one the units to my N scale and the VO 1000 you sold me is still making the Boron Turn and switching cars. And, And, Stubby has his layout wired in for DCC. He purchased a brand new wireless MRC unit and Steve is helping him hard wire in his locomotives. We can't thank-you enough for the time you took to come up and give is a glimpse at what is truly an awesome way to operate a railroad. Thanks! Still having loads of fun.wink:
