DCC++EX & reverse loops

Clifford Aug 18, 2022

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  1. Clifford

    Clifford New Member

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    I’m designing my second layout this time using a dogbone, and considering using DCC++EX for my controller. What are the dos & don’ts of track design with reverse loops and DCC++EX?
    -Are turnouts ok?
    -Can I run two trains simultaneously in a loop?
    -Can I lay track in a loop inside of a reverse loop? (making a double line reverse loop)
    Thank you
    Clifford
     
  2. wvgca

    wvgca TrainBoard Member

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    ex just supplies power and signal to the track ... it doesn't change phase to allow for reverse loops ... you need a reverse loop switch box / controller for that part of it ...
     
  3. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    two trains 3 trains or 4 trains as many as you can . i have run 6 N scale locos less than 1 amp......
    i dont know what you mean turnout (to control them ?)
    i dont know about reverse loops except you need an auto reverser ..
    DCC++ex is same as other control systems but better and cheaper (in my own lil world )
     
  4. Clifford

    Clifford New Member

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    That's good to know. Guess I'll have to start learning about loops. tks

    So what makes DCC++ex better? Inquiring minds want to know. tks
     
  5. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    As the other guys mentioned on reversing loops, wyes, turntables, any situation where the polarity has to be changed to avoid a short DCC++EX is like any other DCC system in how you can wire it. Auro-reversers make it really easy and fool proof and can cost less than $40 but one can use a DPDT switch or other home grown systems to also reverse the polarity. I don't want to have to be on top of it myself all the time so will use auto-reversers.

    Probably hard to find any commercial or non-commercial system DCC system and say it is better than all the rest. They all have good points and some not so good points. I'll list why I went with DCC++ first and then moved on to DCC++EX.

    Cost was big and I think we are all influenced by this to some degree. After seeing DCC being used at a club layout I knew that I wanted a DCC system and also a wireless hand throttle. After researching the system they were using and liking it I realized to have the system, boosters, throttle and such that I'd need for my moderately large layout I'd be it it for a minimum of $500 and then up as I added boosters, circuit breakers and other items.

    At that point DCC++EX wasn't around yet but DCC++ was and it also is built using an inexpensive Arduino and motor shield. I found info on building the system and did but it was far from 'plug and play'. But using it and free JMRI software was able to run and program a DCC loco for under $50. The program was iffy and no wireless throttle (used JMRI's) computer/screen/mouse throttle. At this point still thought I'd later move on but .....

    .... then Fred, on here, and other volunteers took DCC++ and totally rewrote the code for it. It is now a whole other animal equaling and I think surpassing a number of other DCC systems that are out there that cost hundreds of dollars. It is still Arduino based but now for about $9 more you can add a WiFi component where the command station is also a WiFi hotspot. With that you can run wireless phone throttles, with or without an addon physical throttle knob (knob control adds about $35). You can be into the command station for less than $100 total, about $300-$400 less than what I thought I was going to have to spend.

    They have improved the programming where now I never have a problem programing a loco with JMRI's DecoderPro and they have features that commercial systems don't have that help you modify things where you can program loco's that other systems are having a hard time with. Since DCC++EX is open source it can be modified and the 'team' working on it ( HERE ) is doing that all the time and you can download the latest version after they add things such as now roundhouse turntable control and other features such as EX-Rail Automation that lets you setup routes and control turnouts and more automatically.

    Also now you don't have to be an electronics person or a computer programmer to set the system up. They have auto-installers for the software part similar to adding any commercial program to your computer. Putting the electronic components together is plugging a couple boards into each other and then adding the power and track wiring to terminals like you do with any commercial system. You can add boosters, circuit breakers and other components just like you do to any other commercial system.

    Anyone who hasn't checked it out and is thinking about getting into DCC or like Sid did wants to maybe switch systems should check out the DCC++EX site here .........................

    https://dcc-ex.com/

    If you don't want to get involved in a bunch of options and want to see how easy it is to set a system up with minimum 'having to learn and decide' I've also put together a path to that here ........................

    http://1fatgmc.com/RailRoad/DCC/page-1.html

    Is it better? I'd say it is as good as about any system out there, maybe doesn't have a feature or two that some have but also has some features they don't have and you aren't going to find one that you can get into for anywhere near the same price.

    Sumner
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  6. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    What (Sumner said ) very well said..........its easy and cheap and works very very good.. I do love the fact that i can use my old phone as a throttle. (y)
     
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  7. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    DCC++EX is certainly impressive, but...

    What are the limitations of DCC++EX? I know you can add boosters 'till the cows come home but...

    How many WiFi throttles can it handle by itself (without using JMRI, etc. running on a separate computer)?

    How many (non-consisted) locomotives can it run simultaneously?

    How many stationary/accessory (e.g. signal or turnout control) decoders can it control simultaneously?

    I know it is not intended to be as capable for large layouts, with lots of trains, as some (expensive) commercial systems, but it would be good to know how much it can do, or when it would be better to consider a larger capacity, more expensive, commercial DCC system.
     
  8. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    LIMITATIONS : i really don't know.........and think that not many.............
    #1 throttles i have ran two phone throttles witch would = to 8 trains 4 on each phone for my setup (i think it can go to 8 locos each phone ) and that would be 16 locos running altogether.......
    #2 i don't know i would imagine as many as you can handle. i mean hey it can handle 6 trains for sure because i have ran them on my layout.
    #3 i don't know but Im sure it can handle a lot of them two. I only have one stationary decoder but do have more to install....
    I think it can handle a lot of stuff . best thing i can say is build it and push it to the limit big time.......kinda like how i drive all my autos. you dont know the limit till you get there.....
    I don't use JMRI except for programing. you can use it full time if you want. but i choose to not have a computer / laptop connected all the time.
    people have had good luck running a PI4 along with the Arduino setup. but i have not had any luck with that for me. IT does work though.
    i have a nce setup but its in a box someplace. i just don't like it as much as i do the Arduino DCC++EX its much better and i have had zero problems running just that on Arduino/ Deeks motor sheild and wifi module..... where when i was using the NCE power cab i had a constant problem with the wire connections .
    hope that help a bit....sid not very good at splaining things:D
     
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  9. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    I guess the question would also be what are they for other systems if one thinks they might be pushing things -- Digitrax, NCE, Sprog, ESU and others? Not sure how hard it is to find the answers to your questions with any of them.

    One can take a minute and read the introductory page for DCC++EX ( HERE ) and see the number of things it will do. I'd say their goal is to offer a low cost option for those individuals who want to get into DCC. Later if you are trying to run a ton of trains at the same time or do something else that doesn't seem to be in line with what DCC++EX is capable of move on and your out $75 or so and can probably get most of that back selling it to someone else.

    It is clear that it has brought a lot of modelers into the hobby that weren't here before and has helped a number move from DC to DCC. That is growing the hobby for us and for those making a living off of it. DCC++EX also offers different paths one can take. From "I don't want to know a thing about it but just want to run trains" to you are a electronics guy that wants to develop hardware/software to use with it.

    I hope to finish up with a fair size layout and don't see it not being capable of anything I want to accomplish with a home layout. I don't seeing myself running any more trains at once that what Sid is doing. Might have some three loco consists so could have 10-12 locos running at the same time but I'd have the consist set up probably as 'advanced consisting' where a single packet of info is sent reducing the load on the command station. I just need to be sure I have the current needed but I have boosters to handle that as you would have in any system with a lot of locos running. Sid has shown he can run a number now even without a booster so I might not of needed them.

    Lots of paths available with DCC, one should choose the one that works for them ;),

    Sumner
     
  10. CSX Robert

    CSX Robert TrainBoard Member

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    5 WiFi throttles.

    Defaults to 20, 30, or 50 locos, depending on which Arduino you use. Since you're talking WiFi, it would have to be the Mega, so 50 locos.

    The number of accessory decoders is only limited by the address space, so 2044. Loco decoders are more limited because the system has to continuously send commands to the loco, while accessory decoder commands are only sent when there is a change in state (on or off).

    Most of that information is can be found on the manufacturers' websites without too much digging, but you do have to go to each manufacturer to find it. There is a chart that consolidated a lot of this information from several manufacturers that used to be referenced a lot when people had these questions; howerver, the last time I checked it hadn't been updated in years and was terribly out of date. I don't know of anything similar that is not out of date, though honestly I haven't looked in a while so there might be.
     
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  11. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for the info and I think 50 locos should handle my needs ;).

    When we are in Phoenix visiting the mother-in-law I try and visit one of the club layouts in the Sun City, Sun City West area. There are 3 nice ones that are quite large and I don't think I've ever witnesses more than 10 locos, if that many running at any single time. I'm sure they must have some op days/nights where there is more but I haven't been there for those. From the numbers you just gave it looks like DCC++EX could probably even work on smaller club layouts.

    What do they do for command stations on some of the large temporary layouts I've seen posted that take up an exhibit building. I've seen videos taken from the head of a train where it takes about 30 minutes to do a single lap around. I probably didn't see 50 locos running at the same time though. What are the limits on some of the commercial command stations?

    Sumner
     
  12. Clifford

    Clifford New Member

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    Thank you all for the great information! @wvgca @sidney @Sumner @CSX Robert
    Wondering if I should buy a Raspberry pi with the starting parts, or get it later if I'm happy with everything. My last build I used a Sprog 2 and my computer to run trains. It was a hassle to disconnect my laptop in the train room when I needed it elsewhere. My search for something different started when I learned that sprog 2 didn't play well with loops. At least that is my understanding.
     
  13. CSX Robert

    CSX Robert TrainBoard Member

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    For many years the top end Digitrax command stations could run 120, but they have some now that will do 400. The current iteration of the Zephyr will do 20. The NCE PowerHouse Pro will do 250. Those are the only ones I remember right off hand.
     
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  14. CSX Robert

    CSX Robert TrainBoard Member

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    I think the issue with the Sprog 2 and reverse loop controllers is the Sprog 2 is only 1 amp and many reverse controllers will not trip at that low of a current, so the Sprog trips before the reverser can activate. There are reversers that can be adjusted to trip lower than an amp, or you could also use a booster with the Sprog 2.
     
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  15. Sumner

    Sumner TrainBoard Member

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    Just to be sure I'm guessing you are referring to 'loops' as reversing sections of track? I would think the Sprog 2 would be like most other DCC command stations and would work fine if you employed an auto-reverser or used a switch to change the track polarity when the train goes through one.

    I really like using the Pi with DCC++EX as I use DecoderPro and also EngineDriver sees my loco roster and I can select a loco using the roster and don't have to remember the loco's road number or squint and try and see it. Although with the Pi shortage and the price gouging going on now, hard to find a $35 Pi, I might wait if if could and use the computer a while longer. Also another option is to look for a used computer, desktop or laptop to use in the train room. I'll bet a little searching would turn one up for $50 or less at yard sales, Goodwill, etc.. It doesn't take much of a computer to run JMRI.

    If you spend $9 for the WiFi module you don't need one except to program a decoder and could they hook up the laptop for that.

    Sumner
     
  16. Clifford

    Clifford New Member

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    If I use a pi or an older desktop pc, do I still need a monitor to see what's happening?
     
  17. Mark Ricci

    Mark Ricci TrainBoard Member

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    Just a another viewpoint....

    Focus--building light and highly power efficient layouts...
    I am not affiliated with the DCC EX team nor speak for them. Just a enthusiastic DCC EX - MRR hobbyist...
    With my layout packed up, explored some DCC EX features and functions over the last couple of months during withdrawal periods.

    To the best of my knowledge, the maximum connections for the ESP8266, the wifi shield, is theoretically 8, generally maxes out at 5 sockets, and by default allows only 3. Believe DCC EX is 5.

    DCC EX, with I2C expansion, believe allows up to to 8 power outputs. 2 per shield. Additionally, based on the number of digital pins (Mega has more) and expansion, max would be a little over 32000 2^15 less some unusable, DCC EX internally assigned pins.

    Currently my layout is controlled by a Raspberry Pi 4 2GB, 32G samsung evo SD card, running JMRI connected to DCC EX.

    Throttle Pushed by JMRI and Throttle Pushed by DCC EX. (Intentionally left undefined Functions on DCC EX pushed throttle to easily determine which system on)

    upload_2022-8-19_14-18-20.png

    DCC EX in the myAutomation file; for SD35

    ROSTER(2502,"CNJ SD35","Lights/Bell/*Horn/CouplerClank/DieselFans/DynamicBreak/F6/SwitchingMode/StartShutdownMute/ManualNotchingUp/ManualNotchingDown/F11/DimLight/F13/F14/F15/RailJointClank/BreakSetRelease/SandingValve/ShortAirLetOff/AirCompressor/PopValve")

    upload_2022-8-19_14-19-3.png



    DCC EX has some pretty cool features. Have read about a number who have small layouts and want to throw a turnout. Unfortunately the standard motor shield does not have enough power to run locos and throw turnouts when run off the same channel so adding a booster or a higher power motor shield was the only way.. Not with DCC EX and Track Manager. DCC EX programmers have created a ingenious way to JOIN OPS output DCC or expressed differently, change the B output (prog track) of the shield TO THE SAME DCC signal from the OPS track. So one can feasibly use the shield's b output, with its own 2A max output to run accessory decoders. This, for a small and/or portable layout is GREAT! The Mega WiFi running DCC OPS on B channel below.

    upload_2022-8-19_14-21-31.png


    And for those with a large inventory of DC locos, one, or both, channel(s) of the motor shield can be setup in DC mode. Imagine, for a moment, not upgrading any of the DC locos, run one shield channel in DC mode for locos, and the other channel in DCC for turnouts, routes, scenery and all controlled from within Engine Driver with EDs sound support. Following picture is using an UNO for testing DC output of the B channel. Currently, running my new DC only CNJ VO-1000 and if you notice, the road number is setup in the DCC EX WebThrottle. DC setup requires a jumper on the UNO and the Release Candidate of DCC (believe EX 4.2 rc3). Amazing.. 1 loco per block per control output.

    upload_2022-8-19_14-22-25.png


    Scenery lighting can also be controlled via DCC EX and ED with simply connecting an LED with a current limiting resistor to an unused digital pin and some code. Wow, now individual structures, street lighting and signs can separately pushed out and controlled, using EX RAIL routes. Like most things controlled by software, adding a couple unplanned lights is much easier since no physical buttons or switches or panels are used.


    upload_2022-8-19_14-24-40.png

    The code for Street Lights'
    ROUTE(24, "LIGHTING:Street Lights")
    IF(78)
    RESET(27)
    UNLATCH(78)
    ELSE
    SET(27)
    LATCH(78)
    ENDIF
    DONE

    And, if the list per type or location gets too long, ED can delimit,,,


    upload_2022-8-19_14-26-4.png


    Unfortunately, unable to test turnouts but that topic is fairly well covered on the DCC EX site. However, it is important to note, that not only can one use DCC EX to control turnouts but via software, ONTHROW and ONCLOSE commands, LED signals can be implemented. This extra and key feature is excellent for those who employ track connected turnout decoders and do not use loconet or some other bidirectional bus in controlling turnouts.

    Sometimes I like running trains and once in a while just like them to run by themselves. Played around with automations but Delay commands were substituted for sensors :-( because I vowed not to buy anything (except extremely hard to get stuff eg CNJ 1064 VO-1000) till relocation is complete. Example SD 35



    executed from ED on laptop..

    upload_2022-8-19_15-47-9.png

    While having the Pi has plusses, VNC in to configure JMRI, easier to make additions, edits and deletes of items.

    the 2 key Pi negatives IMHO are;

    1 the Pi is running an OS and app(s) from an SD card which is not the best for O/S Read Writes. Heard a number of bad stories most likely due to improper (not waiting long enough to pull the plug) shutdown or cheap cards. It takes about 30sec, after hitting the shutdown button in JMRI, for the track power to turn off so presumably, at a minimum, if the power is pulled, either the OS and or JMRI can be writing to file(s). Imagine pulling the plug on your windows pc before right after issuing the shutdown command before it properly shuts down. MicroController based computing devices such as Arduino essentially provide immediate operation at power up or shutdown versus a "bootUp" or shut down time too.
    2 Many users want to place the Pi in station mode or on their network for easier throttle device access instead of AP. IMHO, as soon as a general purpose OS, Windows, MAC, Android eg or Raspian, the Pi's O is a flavor of linux, becomes exposed to the internet some precautions need to be taken. After 25+ years in IT, don't want security concerns in my "computerized" model railroad hobby. PCs, PDA and phones are enouph.

    Don't get me wrong, JMRI is great, buts it a gorilla.... Certainly in a club setting, or where one owns alot of locos, JMRI would most likely win out. There is a lot to like. And, changes are easier (english) and faster to make compared to DCC EX. If you use M Todds image, very smartly, he setup 2 SMB shares so files and say loco pictures can be easily copied from or to the Pi assuming both devices on the same IP scheme, eg the first 3 octets 192.168.4.x

    if I were to build another layout, DCC EX only since it can easily control other aspects with added features, turnouts signals and selective lighting pushed out to a ED throttle. Would JMRI run on one of the laptops for programming only. Or for added fun, connect DCC EX to and install Arduino IDE on the Pi Make code changes via VNC though the PI's speed may try patience.

    Be advised and in all the areas explored required DCC EX team contact on Discord. However, in over 2 years and many questions, every one ? has been promptly and satisfactory answered by a member of the team. Their support rivals commercial products. If one becomes comfortable with the Arduino IDE, chances are you will be able to get through the coding aspect DCC EX. The code that runs the items mentioned above, was either pieced together from the website and/or provided by a member of the group. Most likely, I would be arrested by the programming police for non efficient code... :)

    At any rate, this is the fun with DCC EX and quite honestly, would have a couple around for exploration and experimentation even if owned a commercial system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
  18. Mark Ricci

    Mark Ricci TrainBoard Member

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    If you use M Steve Todds image, one only needs to install VNC on computer since its script includes remote host.

    https://mstevetodd.com/jmri-raspberrypi-access-point

    I've never connected a monitor to my Pi.
     
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  19. sidney

    sidney TrainBoard Member

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    a monitor makes it a lil easy to see whats going on in jmri and throttles ect . a small monitor for PI4 would work great or if you have a laptop or an tablet either would work. if you have a spare monitor that would work as well.
    WOW 50 locos on DCC++Ex with Arduino mega shoot i can barley keep up with 5 running on my layout . mine are not in consist either. they run separately. WOW 50 man thats a lot of locos
     
  20. BigJake

    BigJake TrainBoard Member

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    When I'm programming a loco's decoder, etc. where I need a monitor/keyboard/mouse for Decoder Pro, I just VNC into my R-Pi (running a Pi SPROG 3 DCC hat) from my laptop. I've never had a keyboard, mouse or monitor connected directly to my Pi 4b.

    Otherwise, I use Engine Driver app on my phone to run trains, and the Pi runs JMRI Panel Pro headless.

    I connect my Pi to my WiFi router, so it has connections to the internet. I keep it up to date with periodic updates (made much simpler since it is on the internet, so that's kind of a double-edged sword...)

    Connecting it to my router also means I don't have to switch WiFi connections on my phone or laptop when I want to use either/both with JMRI.

    I upgraded to an SSD connected to one of the USB3 ports on the Pi, and it runs much faster. I have an app on my phone to shut down the Pi safely before shutting off power. It will boot off an SD card if one is plugged in at boot time. I keep a rescue SD card configured and up to date for just such events, but I have not had to use it yet (I guess going on a couple of years now?)

    I find the Pi very responsive running JMRI, about as responsive as my mid-range windows i7 laptop runs it anyway.

    To combat the current R-Pi shortage, you can get an R-Pi 400, which is essentially a 4b re-packaged and stuffed in a keyboard (ala the old Commodore 64's, Color Computer II's, etc. but MUCH better). The 400's processor is a step or two ahead of that on the 4b. The keyboard consumes one of the USB ports, so you have only three available externally. The expansion port is still exposed, on the back with all the other ports. This means it is still compatible with all the Pi SPROG series DCC hats (as well as the SPROG USB based systems.) There are a couple of advantages to the 400 over the standard 4b: The built-in standard-sized keyboard includes a shutdown key for safely shutting down Linux before you remove power. Also, the 400 includes a large aluminum heatsink that keeps the Pi running cooler, so you can over-clock it more than a 4b in most enclosures (though I've never felt the need to do that).
     
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