The gate wouldn't have come down on the bus driver, because she was through the intersection and the gate arms only cover the oncoming traffic side. IE, they're only half as long as the road is wide.
Yoho, from the Wikepedia link, follow the link to the NTSB report for full info. The photo and diagrams on the Wikepedia site are from the NTSB report, so are genuine. The bus was in the path of the train by only around 3 feet, however in front of her she had a 6 foot wide (empty) crosswalk, then a further couple of feet in front of that before getting as far as a traffic lane at the intersection. The drivers initial lack of awareness of what was occuring around her was just as big an issue here as with Elmwood park - if you like, the driver(s) "getting it wrong" was the 'initial' cause in both. Luckily at Elmwood Park the occupants of the vehicles mostly were aware enough to get out of there when the crossing was activated. The crossing gates I believe extend slightly over the road centre line, and did actually strike the bus when the crossing was activated (it's mentioned in the NTSB report), the railroad equipment gave a full 20+ seconds of warning, irrespective of what the road signals were doing. From reading various sources it seems that the crossing bells, flashing lights, the gate hitting the bus and the train horn being sounded repeatedly were not heard by the driver until around 1 second before impact. She was not 'trapped' on the crossing as there was space in front of her, but actually had no idea that the rear of her vehicle was in a dangerous position. Interestingly the NTSB report suggests her foot was still on the brake pedal at time of impact. This is a comparison in my eyes: Fox River: A trained, professional driver (admittedly not the regular one, but I see the issue here is one of hazard perception not route knowledge), who's even been to OLS classes, in daylight, with an elavated driving position giving a good view across the crossing, with no other traffic in front to interfere with her judgement, stops at the crossing (which is two tracks, at near 90 degrees, so maybe 30-35' across?) to look both ways, makes a decision to pull across, but misjudges the length of her vehicle versus the length of the space available and gets it wrong. Elmwood Park A driver sat low down in a car, in two lanes (each way) of busy rush hour traffic, at night, with very little formal training, forward view hampered by every other vehicle being a minivan or SUV, has to judge a crossing of 3 tracks at around 20 degree's, which makes it what, 80 to 100 feet across? Makes a decision to pull across and gets it wrong.
But we're not talking about 1driver here in the Elmwood park incident, we're talking about many. That stopped while fully aware of where they were. Not noticing all the noise aorund he ris a problem in the Fox river grove incident and certainly the driver is not without culpability, but she "Thought" she was clear of the tracks. As opposed to in Elmowood park where they made no attempt to clear the tracks.
I'll accept that Wikipedia says it was hit by the arm, I'm going as much off of memory here as anything, but I believe It's a two arm crossing.
Is it easier to judge where traffic will come to a stand when you are the only vehicle present, or when you are moving in heavy traffic? How do you know, for sure, that all the drivers in the Elmwood Park incident were fully aware of where the traffic was going to stop, or where that point was in relation to the tracks (at an angle, at a long distance, at night, in traffic, with apparently no visual indicators to help other than the physical tracks themselves.) How do you know that none of those drivers "thought" the cars in front were clear of the tracks? Or that they "thought" the whole line of traffic they were moving in would pass all the way across before it came to a stop? I agree, the lack of hearing warnings was a very big issue at Fox River, but only *after* she was stopped on the crossing!
If each person were to stop and not proceed until the entire interection was clear would be impractical. A way to move traffic expediantly through the intersection would be more plausible. You would think that the traffic signals would be set up to work in conjuction with train movements. I have seen some intersections where one road crosses three. Each road that is crossed has it's own traffic signal. They are timed out so as not to trap a vehicle amongst the three traffic signals.
Okay, here's some thoughts - short term: 1. Change the wording on the sign - by the time the driver is faced with the decision to stop on the tracks (because the guy in front just did) it's too late - the wording wants to make folk think about their decisions before that, not tell you not to do something that they don't have any intention of doing as they approach the crossing (you're not telling us these folk drive home from work saying 'tonight i'm going to stop my car in the path of a train'?) My suggestion would be something like 'Do not enter crossing unless you have space to exit the crossing' (there's probably a better way of putting that though!) 2. What happenned to this reccomendation? I can't see any reference points a driver could use to tell wether the car ahead was stopped clear of the crossing or not. Given that point where you are clear will be different by several car lengths on each lane, and the distance from the stop line, some kind of visual hint as to where 'clear of the crossing' is would be useful. In the UK, from memory most crossings have 'box junction' hatchings, not only do they invoke the 'do not enter unless you can exit' rule, but they also give a clear visual indication of exactly which bits of the intersection that you must not block. http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#150 is the relevant rule. Note that the box does not have to be square, it can angle across with the tracks or be 'stepped' to follow the lanes as they clear. Those kinds of things might make a difference by making the nature of the hazard more obvious. After that, you're maybe into re-aligning the road so it takes a shorter route across the tracks, or ideally a bridge. All but the dumbest drivers manage to negotiate bridges. [ December 02, 2005, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Martyn Read ]
I don't know how many people use that crossing regularly. It would be interesting to know. Being creatures of habit, would people really notice a change in signage? I suppose if there were some red flags to get the driver's attention. How about an "escape" lane??? It could be painted like the "box junction" and used in case you were to get trapped in such a dilema. But then again, would people know the dilema they are in when waiting for the traffic light??
I'm such a train nerd, when I'm go back to Chicago for Christmas, I'll have to bvreak out the Camera at this intersection. This is a fairly busy road in a largely residential neighborhood. and Over or underpass would be largely impractical. I need to double check, btu I believe the lights are timed to the track signals. When I say I "Know" I say it from having been at that intersection and watched drivers pull up on the trakcs with a clear redlight and no space. You can judge even at night fairly well. This isn't a country road. It's a well lit city street. In either case, my opinion ocomes from driving through this intersection myself personally many many times during all times of the day and night winter and summer rush hour and not. Trust me when I say, there were people knowingly putting themselves at risk here.
I rode this line for 2 years. It was a notorious grade crossing for people to stop their cars on. The tracks also slightly curve to the east to parallel the road, making this particular grade crossing more difficult to see for an engineer. Either way, we're all taught to keep enough distance in front of you so, that you don't get caught in this situation. The one lady that was mentioned earlier, has been on TV here a couple of times, she's keeps saying that she thought traffic was going to go through the grade crossing but, she went anyway. Not only that but, here apartment looks right over the grade crossing so, she's well aware of the width and the danger of the crossing. And yet, she stated that she can't totally be at fault. They also interviewed a fireman (the firehouse is right next to the crossing) and he said people pull acriss the grade crossing all the time. Elmwood Park officials have said they are going to heavily monitor this area with police for violations. Why hasn't this occurred to them before??? It's a traffic violation pure and simple.
Wouldn't putting the stop lights before you get to the crossing be better?I don't know because I haven't seen the tracks and road there but it is a thought.They have started to do that woth a couple of crossings in my town.When you leave room for vehicles between crossings and stop lights you are asking for trouble.How long do you think it would take a Metra to clear that crossing 15 seconds max?
The traffic signal is about a block, to a block and half down. Logistically too far for the traffic light to be at the grade crossing. The two things that bother me abot this accident; 1) we're all told in Drivers Ed that if you're not certain you can cross a grade crossing, wait. 2) why did none of them get out of their cars? Witnesses say they all had plenty of time to get out? Is your car more important than your life?????
I just spent the better part of the last three months with a surface and lining gang on the Metra. The Geneva, Kanosha, and Harvard subdivisions all had tie work done. There ex C&NW lines and now operated by the UP. I suppose Im a bit biased becouse I know were my bread gets buttered. But to throw my 2 cents in. You really have to experiance Chicago rush hour traffic to have half a clue how stupid some people drive. I read a lot of speculation about signaling and were the train shunted the crossing gates and what not. I belive people would find a way to "be stupid" no matter what the railroad did. Theres alwaws room for improvment. But I think a lot of these people were at fault. Its a railroad crossing for Gods sake. Id bet they were more concerned with not letting that so & so get ahead of em, or beating the train than the danger they were putting themselves in. Another thing that I havent seen mentioned is the fact, you can almost set your watch by these trains. Anyone who travels Grand Ave should have a half a clue there on LIVE TRACK. Having operated on track equipment in Chicago and on the railroad in general. Ive seen peopld drive right aroung gates including a school bus once. They will look right at a machine and not see a train coming from the opposit direction on the adjacent track. Ive seen people knock the gate right down and cross in front of trains. I think its a shame anyone got hurt. But maybe it will wake some of the stupider ones up.
Welcome aboard! I like your user name. Am sure that some dispatchers, and train crews opinions, may be part of why you chose it? Boxcab E50
