Getting Started in HO With a 4x8 Layout (I know, I know...)

btk Nov 30, 2016

  1. btk

    btk TrainBoard Member

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    Recently, my son (4 years old) declared in front of all of his grandparents that he wanted a "real" train set, instead of the wooden Brio tracks that he has now. In an amazing display of charity (and garage/attic decluttering, I assume...) we were swiftly graced with three complete sets of model trains. One O gauge, one that also appears to be O gauge but won't work with the first O gauge track, and one HO gauge. Somewhat unsurprisingly, these were all thrown in boxes when the respective grandparents moved out of the respective great-grandparents' houses and as a result are all in very poor condition. One of the O locos runs begrudgingly, one requires a push every few inches, and one just lights up. Neither of the HO locos run and both have cracked frames.

    At this point, I was ready to give up and throw in the towel. It was clear that all of this equipment would require a ton of work to get back into serviceable shape and with the space available, HO was about as large a scale as I'd like to go.

    Naturally, this didn't fly with the four year old. He was really sad about none of the trains working. One of my co-workers is a rail fan whose father passed last year and left him a ton of HO gear. Out of the blue, he offered us an HO loco and several pieces of rolling stock for free.

    All of the grandparents regaled us with tales of their old 4x8 sheets of plywood and how much fun they had with their trains, so that's how we started on our adventure. My son and I built a great sturdy table and I bought enough Bachmann NS EZ Track (thinking that we'll want to re-arrange it quickly and easily down the road) for an oval with a single small siding, powered by an MRC dual cab DC transformer:

    [​IMG]

    Shortly after that, I learned that 4x8 is NOT the way to go. We enjoy running the train on our current oval, but there's only so many times you can go around in a circle before one of our attention spans drifts off. We really want to be able to run two trains at once and have some more interesting operational possibilities as well. So another few hours in my CAD application, and I come up with another possibility:

    [​IMG]

    I figure this will be complex enough to hold our interest long enough to figure out whether or not we're both interested enough to expand with some sort of extension benchwork.

    The original plan was to stay DC, since that's what our gifted locomotive is. The more I read about the wiring, however, the more of an operational nightmare this layout becomes. I'm not afraid of doing the wiring and building a control panel. In fact, it sounds fun! But I don't think the operation will be as easy for my son to grasp as something like the JMRI panel software is capable of.

    So here we are, with the grandparents looking for Christmas lists (of track pieces) and me not being sure what to do. Thus, I turn to you folks.

    1. It's important for us to be able to simultaneously control two trains.
    2. Remote-controlled turnouts/crossovers are a must, and I'd like to add signal lights and crossings down the road.
    3. Given this, should we be switching to DCC instead of DC? Ease of operation of the railroad is my first priority, but price is a close second.
    4. If we go DCC, I'd like to buy into a system that can be expanded down the road and isn't too limited in its feature set... so maybe not the Cadillac of control systems, but at least a nice comfy Buick or an entry-level Lincoln?
    5. As I mentioned above, integration with the JMRI software suite is attractive.
    I saw the Digitrax Zephyr. I'll admit I'm not up on a lot of the terminology, but the one thing that stuck out is that we could also control DC locos with it and down the road hook our dual-cab DC transformer into it to function as a second and third throttle for DCC locos. Additionally, the Digitrax system is what our local club uses in their impressive display, so I figured it can't be all bad.

    I've tried to do my homework on all of this, but since I'm just starting out I'm getting lost in a lot of the terminology and jargon. Frankly, I'm not entirely sure that I even know the right questions to be asking. I've found many "beginner's guides" online, but none that really help with our current situation, so any links you have to reading material are certainly welcome.

    Thank you!

    EDIT: in my mind, this was a track design post but after writing it all down it looks like my issue is more DC vs. DCC. Mods, please move if appropriate!
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  2. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    I think a lot of us forget how much fun a 4x8 can be. It's sort of a problem when dealing with the older crowd who have moved onto much bigger layouts. The other thing is that with a four year old around, he is going to want to PLAY trains. It's different than us grown ups.

    I too have a digitrax zephyr. It's a really good starter system.

    Everyone is going to give you a different answer on how to do your layout. For a four year old, it might be good to have a traditional control panel with a diagram of the tracks and the controls located next to where the things are.

    A DCC power pack will not provide power for accessories without DCC controllers. Seems you can do it easier for now by staying analog on the controls and using your old power pack to provide power to the lights and things.

    If you are using newer ready to run track, My only advice is to ditch the cad and play with assembling the track itself.

    It seems like your instincts are on the right path. :)
     
  3. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    Hate to nudge you backward, but the problem with at least one of the O gauge locomotives may just be years without lubrication. A little emery paper on the electrical contact surfaces and a little oil could do wonders. As for the one which only lights up, is it an AC-powered locomotive with E-Unit directional control? If so, interrupting power could make it run. Try giving it power again, and see if it goes. If not, throw the switch on the top or bottom and try again.

    Or just stick with the HO. Works for me. Double track on a four foot wide layout is a hassle. You wind up with track much too close to the edge for operation around four-year-olds. You might find it adds considerably more interest to do a dogbone. If you're not familiar, this is a layout which has two loops some distance apart, with what can be a very thin section in between. It's just a loop elongated and squeezed in the middle. Each of the two ends can be basically 4x4 (with a little bit of a tail where the track curves back out), and in between it can be as little as six inches wide along a wall. The two sides of the loop are squeezed together so they look like double track. It allows a train to actually go somewhere, without introducing any more operating challenges. It really is still a loop, but you wind up with one train board on this side of the room or this side of the door, another over there, and a nice, long line running some distance on a narrow shelf between them where it doesn't eat up much living space. So, you can have the train run most of a circle by the door to the room, run a narrow shelf all the way around the room, and circle back on the other side of the closet door. Just expanding the main so the train takes a minute to make its trip, and it covers a stretch going both ways, adds a lot of interest.

    Put crossovers along this 'double track' and switches which allow the polarity to be reversed and two trains can be run, though it becomes a mentally challenging puzzle to pull it off. Or make part of this stretch triple track, so one train can be run 'hands free' and the other parked on the extra track, when desired. One has to stop while the other passes it, much like a real railroad. I'm inclined to say don't jump on DCC, at least not yet. DCC can be an expensive pain in the butt, and you might regret the investment if he loses interest. Electrical block control, on the other hand, is a nice way to teach basic logic, and the puzzle could help him stay interested.

    Two boards and a long shelf is not that huge an investment in time or materials, for a big reward as far as having trains that actually cover some ground. And if you decide to stick with it, you can add sidings, industries, and even things like a turntable inside the two end loops at a later date. So, it grows in complexity and operating possibilities without really growing--you get more stuff in the same footprint.

    Make it modular in case you move, and so you can introduce additional complexity between loop ends just by replacing a section with a wider section. You'll also find 22" radius curves fit on a four foot wide board, and greatly expand your choices of locomotives and long cars.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2016
  4. HOexplorer

    HOexplorer TrainBoard Supporter

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    Simple is good. Here is a simple plan 6x5. Jim

    [​IMG]
     
  5. CarlH

    CarlH TrainBoard Member

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    I second the idea of the dogbone, with a thin board (1 feet deep? maybe less?) running along the wall for some distance. There is a fascination to making things happen at a distance, and the dogbone idea would greatly magnify this. The far end of the dogbone could be just big enough to have the reversing loop - but consider making the curves there be a little larger than 18 inch radius for enhanced reliability at that far-away place - maybe with just one small siding so something interesting can take place there. The near end of the dogbone could the the larger piece - maybe a 4 x 8 piece of plywood. And if you an add a few more inches of width to this (5 feet wide?), you can make things more interesting, and break away from the monotony of two concentric ovals forced to run at the very outer edges of the layout. The minimum practical radius for a "kid layout" is 18 inch radius, so if you put two loops on a board that is 4 feet wide, with the outer loop having a 21 inch radius curves, that outer loop would almost fully occupy the board's width once you add the ballast and a couple inches margin on each side.
     
  6. btk

    btk TrainBoard Member

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    Thank you all for the thoughtful replies!

    The plus side of the table we built is that it's two 4'x4' squares that attach to each other. Assuming we stick with it we can pull them apart, put them on two walls, and build some new narrow benchwork between them to go around the corner to get a dog bone. I definitely see the draw of a longer lap time, particularly after seeing our local club's large layout last weekend.

    My son is very cautious in general, but he's been very gentle with the trains. We did have one serious derailment that has led to an extra 1x6 piece as a guard along the back and sides of the table to prevent anything else from hitting the floor, so running close to the edge of the table is a concern that's (largely) been mitigated. Scenery isn't important at this point. It is, as @traingeekboy noted, all about playing trains. Coupling, decoupling, moving cars around and rearranging them. I was a computer science major back in the day, so I can envision teaching him the classic Tower of Hanoi puzzle using a few spurs and different length cars.

    @acptulsa: I'm glad to hear that the O gauge locos may be salvageable. We're not getting rid of them since they still look great. They'll be decorations for now since the track we have for them is in really bad shape but bringing them back to life (along with new track) sounds like a great project down the road.

    I like the idea of using the basic block control to teach logic but I think that's beyond his level at this point. I think a control panel for the switches and the like is a great idea, and I'd have no problem doing that the "old fashioned" way with a control panel with switches and LEDs and solder (and honestly, I'd really LIKE to take a crack at it), but I think doing the track block control that way will be really confusing for him. It's certainly something I'd like to circle back on and try out when he's older, but I think at this stage it would only turn him off.

    So here's where my understanding of the technology starts to fail me. Would it be feasible to do a physical control panel with diagrams and switches and LEDs but control the locos with DCC so that we don't have to mess with flip-flopping track blocks back and forth to the correct cab?

    If that makes sense, would the DigiTrax Zephyr Xtra do the following?
    • Use the throttle on the Zephyr to control one loco
    • Use the "Jump Port" to attach our MRC Tech7 Ampac 780 power pack to provide two additional DCC throttles
    • Use the AC terminals from the MRC pack to power our switches, crossovers, and accessories
    The other issue I have is with my turnout. The solenoid and momentary switch mechanism that the Bachmann track uses leaves something to be desired, so I was fiddling with the idea of somehow fitting a tortoise switch machine to the turnout. This is especially important if we want to do a control panel with actual switches. I haven't found much online about doing this, and if it's not on the Internet somewhere it's probably not possible, but I figured I'd at least give it a shot.
     
  7. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    I'm not much help with DCC. I grew up with blocks, and actually enjoy power dispatching. Tortoise motors will operate any turnout you can find a way to attach them to.

    Even with DCC, using the middle of a dogbone as double track requires reversing polarity. It becomes a reversing loop. If the train will run hands-free down one track and up the other, those tracks have opposite polarity. To cross over and go down the up track, you have to reverse the polarity of the up track.

    That's why the old O gauge has three rails. Both outer rails are - and only the center rail is +. This allows for idiot proof, headache-free reversing loops.
     
  8. traingeekboy

    traingeekboy TrainBoard Member

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    I bought the Xephyr for the jump ports. That just sounded too cool. I was a lone operator and discovered that I could easily have two trains running and swap between them with one control. SO in theory the jump ports are awesome, but I never got around to it. :)
     
  9. CarlH

    CarlH TrainBoard Member

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    For what it's worth, my dad built for me when I was just 5 years old a 4x8 HO layout with two loops, switching between the two loops, and a siding, and it included old fashioned blocks with DPDT switches. I learned it pretty quickly. Recall that our kids are the ones learning to use DVD players when they are 3 years old - even when their parents (us) don't. I think your son would get the DPDT switches and traditional blocks, if you chose to go in that direction.
     
  10. gregorycarlson

    gregorycarlson TrainBoard Member

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    I've done a number of 3'x6' & 4'x8' layouts, they can be fun as long as your trackwork doesn't get too busy. As for your question, I don't see any reason you couldn't do as you outlined. Of course, you can always adapt and adjust (especially without the need to worry about ripping up scenery you worked painstakingly on) and figure out what works for you.

    Little ones will constantly surprise you with what they are capable of learning, especially if they have interest!

    Good luck!
     
  11. btk

    btk TrainBoard Member

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    An update on the great Coopersburg, Wassergass, and Macungie Short Line! To put it mildly, the bug has bitten.

    This is how the track looks at the moment:

    [​IMG]

    Since the track plan is still rapidly evolving, I've been using a thin sheet of lauan as a control panel with chart tape to represent the track. I'm fiddling with Lexan and paint a bit for when we want something a bit more permanent but for quick modifications, the wood/tape is doing the trick:

    [​IMG]

    • The DPDT on the one opposing spur at the back of the yard switches that section of track between normal DCC and a connection to our PTB-100 for programming decoders.
    • The red buttons at the end of each of the yard spurs trigger routes on a TeamDigital SRC162e that align each of the yard turnouts for that spur and the yard lead into the yard.
    • Both crossovers and all of the turnouts are DCC-controllable, either natively or via a Digitrax DS64.
    • There's a Raspberry Pi under the layout running JMRI which, among other things, provides WiFi throttle control along with easier programming.
    • Three physical DCC-capable cabs sit in the front of the layout. One on the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra, and two on an MRC dual cab DC supply connected to the Zephyr's jump ports.
    • Adapting the Bachmann EZ-Track turnouts for a Tortoise was dead simple. Once you disconnect the solenoid, you can run the wire from the Tortoise right up through the bar near the end of the points.
    The junior engineer is taking to all of this like a fish to water. He's doing a great job of handling the rolling stock, understands the controls and loves helping out with anything he can.

    So here's where I'm back for some opinions and guidance from folks who know what they're doing. ;)

    My son likes to run long trains. Attempts to reason with him to run trains that are proportional to our spurs have failed. Anything longer than a few cars can't fit into our yard without blocking other spurs. As a result, I'd like to look at maybe expanding our layout by adding a yard on up to a 2'x12' module that runs north-south (assuming the top of the track plan above is north) on the west side of the layout with the south end of the addition being 4' to accommodate a 22" radius turn-around at the south end of the yard. It would also be nice to be able to run in multiple directions, whereas right now we only travel counter-clockwise. Here's a (very) rough sketch of what I was envisioning, but I'm certainly open to other alternatives.

    [​IMG]


    With that as the plan, I've got the following questions:

    • Would switching to some more "normal" type of track for the yard expansion would give me more flexibility than the EZ-Track?
    • If so, is hooking it up to the EZ-Track just a matter of getting the right amount of cork roadbed under it to line up?
    • If so, I'm open to suggestions on track brands/product lines with the goal of reliable DCC-operated turnouts.
    • Does anyone have a good design for something like this? I think four yard tracks in addition to the outer half-dogbone that connects to the existing oval would be plenty, I'm just having a hard time mocking something up that connects properly in my track design program. Plus I figure you folks have done things like this before and would know what makes a good, functional yard. I'm assuming we'll want some crossovers between the yard tracks in a few places, etc.
    Thank you all for your help so far. This forum has been invaluable in getting to this point!
     

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