I've always been fascinated with switching and the levels of complexity you can attain operating in a small space. Combining this with grain elevators and rural settings, I recently stumbled across this from a few years ago by a guy "across the pond": I'm also a fan of how guys in England and Europe make such great layouts in small spaces, so I'm thinking about converting it to N-scale using the same principals/industries for operation and changing the locale. It's apparently about 7ft long in HO, so I'm guessing I could do this easily in a shelf about 2 1/2' wide by about 5' long. There's not an aerial view of the track plan but I've got it figured out apparently pretty close. My questions for you all since there is a wealth of knowledge here is making sure something like this will work within the given space. I think following this simple and uncomplicated plan could really be something that would be a great layout in NScale. Also want to confirm with others that the main line appears to be to be the second track in on the left that goes behind the backdrop Thoughts? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought I'd post a drawing of what I'm considering. Think I can go 18-24" deep like I said earlier to give a bit more room for scenery and operations. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ummm...I must be missing something... If that is a diamond, then it looks like you don't have any way to run around the cars you stage behind a locomotive, so you will only be able to switch the industrial spurs with trailing point turnouts, and any cars on spurs with facing points could be pulled and "taken back" (to staging) in the direction the train originally came from, but there is no way to spot any "inbound" cars on the spurs with facing points. If the train was staged as arriving from the right and the job was finished when the loco and cars were arranged to "depart" to the left, then you might be able to "push" the cars picked up from facing point spurs into "staging", and "pull" cars from trailing point spurs into "staging", but that would seem unsatisfying to me...like the job wasn't finished, yet. If you included a run-around track that ran below and parallel to the short track next to the diamond, and ran the right and middle spurs at the bottom off of the run-around, then you would have an arrangement (sort of) similar to John Allen's Time-Saver, and could switch cars for spurs in either direction, and would be able to stage the train as arriving from either direction, and departing in either direction. If you are conceptualizing the track plan as two railroads crossing with an interchange track located in the upper right corner and no run-around provision, then reposition the interchange track from the upper right corner to the upper left corner. That way you could work the interchange and facing spurs as an Inglenook puzzle. And, if you were to double the shelf depth, it would be possible to set up two 3-spot switching puzzles, one for each railroad with a 3-car interchange track and run-around track that are available to both RRs. The op session would start with 3 cars on the interchange track, one loco and 3 cars visible on the right front main and the other RR's train (loco plus 3 cars) hidden on the right rear of the shelf. Train 1 crew switches out 2 of their industries with 2 of the original cars, then picks up and sets out 3 cars from the interchange track. Then switches out the 3rd industry spot with one of the cars picked up from the interchange track. Then proceeds to hidden staging at the left rear of the module. Then Train 2 works 2 of the 3 industry spots served by the 2nd railroad, interchanges 3 cars, and finishes switching out the 3rd industry spot with one of the interchange cars, and then pulls Loco 2 plus 3 cars into visible staging at the left front of the module. If you play with the lengths of spurs and overall length of the module, you could potentially lengthen spurs to hold more than just one or 2 cars...maybe even reaching the 5-3-3 car capacity of a traditional Inglenook puzzle.
Dave, thanks for your comments. Let me see if I can explain what I think operations would be like. My Farm Link short line leaves a locomotive parked on the grain elevator siding to work these two industries. Before the local comes down from right side behind trees with loads or empties for the grain elevator or lumber yard, the Farm link loco pulls to the right across the main and waits on down my the lumber yard for the local to come by. The local pulls down past the switch and uncouples from the cars for the industries. The Farm rail loco goes and gets the cars on the main, pulls them back down and pushes them onto the right siding. At that point, the local can pull back across the crossover and stop just to the right of the trees, clearing the elevator track. The Farm Rail loco then pulls cars from the grain elevator and lumber yard and pushes them onto the main, then uncouples and pulls back in the clear. Local backs down and couples to the loads, then pulls them back to the yard (staging). That leaves the cars (loads and empties) on the siding to be worked by the Farm Rail loco, placing them at the lumber yard and/or the grain elevator. Once the work is done, the Farm Rail loco parks on the siding at the grain elevator. I can see how the changes you mentioned would maybe be a little more prototypical, and I'll think about making some additional changes in the track arrangement because I agree that it may provide some more operations. I've also toyed with maybe a removable reversing loop (like this: http://www.therailwire.net/forum/index.php?topic=25551.2550 ) which is an idea from another forum. This guy put the reversing loop on top of a rolling shelf which doubles as layout storage. What this would do is the local would drop off the cars, then leave for "other work", then return to pick up cars similar to above. the issue adding other things to the layout like removable loops and other things is it defeats the purpose of a small layout to begin with. Bremmer, thanks for your response and I agree that crossovers are not ideal, but in our modelling world we have to make compromises. I think I've got a minimal amount of trackage and the reasons for what is there being there borders on prototypical from what I've been able to see over the years. I agree 100% if we had all the space we needed we could eliminate things like crossovers, but I don't see how I can do it in this case and still have operations that feature an interchange and give me the elements I've incorporated. If you have other suggestions, by all means let me know what you're thinking.
When I designed my current layout in 2003, I had great plans for matching the prototype in as many ways as possible: signature scenes or features, rolling stock, locos, operations. Over the years, I've made numerous changes to move closer to the prototype, but, especially in operations, I also find myself making changes away from how the prototype trains ran in and out of Peoria. Almost every move away from the prototype has been to make operations more fun/less difficult for visiting operators (or for me, as the dispatcher, head of maintenance, or chief financial officer). "It ain't prototypical!", isn't as important to me now as "Model RR'g is FUN!"
If you're going to have two locos doing the switching are you going to be using DCC? If not then you'll need to add places to park the unused loco to work the other one.
I'm ok with DCC because of the benefits it offers. It's probably overkill for this size layout, but there are some features that will make it worthwhile. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What I did, DCC-wise, was to use auto connectors to the leads to my bus wires. Then, by mounting my PowerCab doo-dads in a cheap plastic toolbox, I can use a single DCC setup for both my switching layout and my roundy-round, just by disconnecting two wires and reconnecting to the others.
Yes I did. I actually like the crossovers just because, and the way the tracks are set up on the drawing I think I've used about all the available real estate to the fullest without cramming things in. If any of you have other suggestions that could add to the operations, by all means let me know.
That's a good idea for those of us on a budget. Makes sense especially in your home use with two layouts.
Andy I've used it only a handful of times. Good suggestion though. I'll have to research that more once I get to that point. Thanks for the advice.
txronharris you only have only one "crossing" in your plan. A crossover is done by switches between two parallel tracks. Used to be a conductor so HAD to know the difference. >)
What Andy said is basically what I was getting at. The diamond is a crossing, short for crossing at grade. A crossover is a pair of switches on parallel tracks that allow a train to move from one track to the other. A crossing doesn't allow movement from one track to another, but allows for movement across the other track. I don't mean to be pedantic and belabor the terminology, but instead hope to point out the correct terms to advance the discussion. There are double crossovers where you have both a right hand pair and a left hand pair of switches forming a crossover that are overlaid on top of each other resulting in a diamond in the center. If you've ridden the DART light rail line, you've encountered double crossovers. A simpler and more common type where space isn't a concern is the universal crossover, which is a right or left hand crossover followed in sequence by the other, i.e. right hand crossover then left hand crossover. Good examples of universal crossovers can be found all over, but there are some near you just north and south of BNSF Alliance Yard. Crossings are generally simpler than switches in that they typically don't have moving parts (unless the angle crossed is less than 8:1, then they have movable points). However, they are prone to greater and more rapid wear, so today they are avoided when possible. But you don't have to go back too far to find them everywhere at all kinds of industries. And there are still locations where they are required, even relatively new industries. Another solution to your crossing is to install a slip switch, which is a crossing that also includes a pair of switch points to allow movement from one track to the other. Like crossings, they are far less common today than one hundred years ago, and required constant maintenance to operate properly. Generally they would be found in a yard or terminal location rather than on customer owned and maintained (or not maintained as is often the case) track. So a slip switch could be installed at your crossing but it is not a very realistic installation. As far as your crossing is concerned, rest assured there are prototypes very similar to what you've designed. As soon as I saw it I thought of a location you may be familiar with if you get down to Fort Worth very often. The tracks are all gone today except the main line, but once upon a time there stood a large elevator between West 7th Street and Lancaster Avenue just west of the Trinity River. West of the elevator was the Tandy Leather Company. In this compact location three crossings were utilized to access the various buildings. The University of Texas at Arlington hosts many great photos online including this aerial showing Bain Peanut and Tandy Leather from the southwest (warning: huge image!): Bain Peanut Aerial When it comes to controlling your equipment, DCC is great. You might also look into Blue Rail Bluetooth control and RailPro radio control.
Ryan, thanks for the above and you are correct that using proper terminology keeps us all on the same page. I'm not too keen on slip switches,especially in N Scale because of their complexity. I know where you're taking about in FtWorth and you're right about the complex trackage. When I think of a track crossing I always think of the one at Saginaw, Texas where I believe the UP and BNSF cross there by the depot. Great aerial by the way and thanks for posting that.
So I have been thinking and may have a solution which adds trackage, but may give better operations. Because of my limited familiarity with any of the track planning software, you'll have to pardon the rudimentary schematic which is not to scale but gives you an idea of the change I was thinking. Basically, remove one storage track from the upper right and make the siding coming down with the main so the local can drop off the loads/empties. Local can then go off to left to do "other work" (remember that portable loop/storage I referenced above?) while switcher works industries. Switcher puts return cars on siding and the local comes back on the main, stops and uncouples from train, then backs into siding to pick up return cars. Yes it adds a set of turnouts, but I think it makes it work better, even with the crossing being more complex now. I am not concerned with looking the storage track behind the scene (thinking about ways to remedy that). Thoughts?
Sorry I've been a little out of touch, but thanks again for all the replies. I ran across this one and the wheels started turning again: I'd change a couple of the industries, but the track plan seems to have lots of possibilities. Since it's HO and I'm aware NScale needs almost the same room, how small do you think I could make something like this and still have the operations I'm looking for? Maybe 2 1/2 wide by 5-6ft? Also, do you see any major operational problems with this type of plan? I've thought about it as a local comes in from the right, switches the industries then leaves going to the right with new loads/empties back to the point of origin. I might could add a removable two or three track staging to the right to facilitate operations, but it can't be permanent. Thoughts and any advice always encouraged and appreciated! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks for the PM. Here's some questions and thoughts it generated: If you add a reversing loop to the left and staging to the right, what is the maximum length you have available in your home, to set up all three together? (And would that space be only along one wall (Letter I) or could it bend to a Letter L or U? What Fre-Mo restrictions, if any, should be considered/incorporated in a loop module or staging module...so you could set up all three modules in your home AND have the option of setting them up as 3 consecutive modules at a Fre-Mo event? Also, do the ends of the rails come out to the edge of the module? Or, should the ends of the rails be back from the edge of the module a specific distance (x inches), so the seam between modules may be spanned with a short section of track (2 times x inches long)? Regarding a loop module...if you set up a 15" minimum radius loop with a 5 inch long #4 turnout at the right end, such a loop module would need to be at least 32" wide and 51" long. If you want to add a Fre-Mo Main running from one end of the loop module to the other, you can add a 2nd turnout at the right end and a 90 degree rail crossing at the left end of the loop. If you put the Main line turnout to the left of the loop turnout, then I think the resulting module would only need to be 2 inches longer and 4 inches wider (deeper). Depending on your preferred length and depth of 3 modules end to end (and your interest in including any extra tracks and/or structures on the staging module), you could have a "Main" down the center of the staging module, with 2 turnouts near the left end. The diverging route of the 1st turnout (a #4 Left) would immediately lead into a 2nd and 3rd turnout (both #4 Rights), which would yield 3 tracks configured as an Inglenook Industry on the back half of the module. The diverging route of the second turnout on the staging main (a #4 Right) would lead to a #4 Left turnout on the front half of the module, which would lead onto two staging tracks...which could be scenicked and operated as one end of a 2-track interchange that disappears off the end of the module to an off-layout RR. You could go the minimalist route and have the 6 tracks on the staging module running parallel to each other on 1.25 or 1.5 inch centerlines for a 9 to 11 inch wide (deep) shelf that is 4 feet long; or leave more space between the Main and Interchange tracks, and/or between the Main and Ingelnook industry tracks for a 12 to 15 inch wide shelf; or add enough depth to the shelf to accommodate structures behind the back tracks, or toward the right end of the module between the main and interchange tracks. (You may not want to put any trees or tall structures between the main and Ingelnook tracks [or in the center of the module between the Main and interchange tracks), because they could potentially interfere with coupling/uncoupling cars on the Ingelnook tracks.) If space limitations force you to have a staging module that is less than 44 inches long, you may still be able to add a 3-track Ingelnook Industry at the back of your staging module and enter it from an industry spur in the back right corner of the center module...like it was coming from the end of the Johnson Controls spur in the track plan above. The industrial track from the center module goes to two turnouts on the staging module that are configured to provide a 3-track Ingelnook industry. If the Ingelnook tracks are accessed from the Main of the staging module, then it would be possible to design a single track 3" by 30" cassette or Fre-Mo module to take the place of the longer center module. This shorter module would serve as a "Main" track (and lead) that is long enough to accommodate a loco and 5 cars and would allow switching cars between the 3-track Ingelnook industry, the 2-track interchange, and the staging module Main in a space that is less than 7 feet long. These four modules (4' Loop; 4-6 foot Center; 4' Staging; 30 inch Cassette) could be combined in various ways to give several operating options, depending on space or time available: Lengths edited 2017-08-24. 1. a 6.5 ft long Ingelnook/Interchange Job (Cassette + Staging) 2. a 10.5 to 12.5 foot Eastbound or Westbound Job, Staging to Industries Job (Cassette + Center + Staging) or back the other way. 3. a 12-14 foot Staging to Loop and back to Staging Job (Loop + Center + Staging) 4. a 12-14 foot segment within a larger Fre-Mo layout [Industries eastbound, Interchange and/or Ingelnook westbound] 5. a 14.5-16.5 foot Cassette to Loop to Cassette Job (Loop + Center + Staging + Cassette) [5 cars westbound Cassette to Ingelnook/Industries/Interchange; 5 cars WB Ingelnook/Industries/Interchange around Loop; pick up 5 Eastbound cars from Loop Main and leave 5 WB cars; 5 EB cars to Ingelnook/Industries/Interchange; 5 EB cars to Cassette.
