Help repowering a PCC

engineer bill May 16, 2016

  1. engineer bill

    engineer bill TrainBoard Supporter

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    Has anyone changed out the Bachman PCC workings for something better? I was thinking one of the Kato power chassis might work but I have no clue on the one to pick or if something else might be a better fit.... an SW1200???? maybe?
     
  2. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Hmm. Interesting idea....
     
  3. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    I have messed with some mechanisms to power some of my critters and most likely one will have to apply some shims of styrene strip in the PCC body to get a snug fit. Kato has three variations of their four axle chassis, the only difference being the type of axle sideframe. Bandai has two chassis that are four axle which currently are the #3 and the #5 which are all axles geared versus just two for the Katos. The Bandai mechanism does not come with truck sideframes using the ones supplied with their kits to press on. Thus one could cut the sideframes off the PCC and apply them to that mechanism while the Kato chassis does not have that provision. Both of the mechanisms are designed to run on tight radius 8 inch or under.
     
  4. engineer bill

    engineer bill TrainBoard Supporter

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    How strange I just noticed the Bachmans have no side frames on them, they are such a cool model that you would have thought by now a repower would be available.
     
  5. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    And looking at some photos of the 1 to 1 stuff your right. Another mechanism does come to mind though and it is the Tomytec TM-01 that is for trolleys. It comes with several sets of sideframes to model different trolleys. I suppose one could just leave the sideframes off for this model.
    And this may help but I don't know how old and dated the list is because they don't list the Bandai series of chassis.
    http://www.trainweb.org/tomix/ChassisDim.htm
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  6. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    A few prototype dimensions that may prove helpful:

    Wheel Dia: 26" +/- 1" = 4.2 mm (.1625")
    Truck Axle C/L: 6' = 11.44 mm (.450")
    Truck C/L: 22'9" = 43.3 mm (1.706")
    Turning Radius: 35' = 66.7 mm (2.625")

    All of those dimensions are tough to find but the wheel diameter is nearly impossible and anything close on the turning radius IS impossible. The Bachmann is at about 7 1/2" I believe which just doesn't allow for anything close to a realistic city street turn (100' vs: 35') and there is no way to modify it to get anywhere close because of the way the drive mechanism functions, misaligning worms. Even a universal joint as the Peter Witt mechanism has only gets you to about a max reported 4 1/2" which is still too large by a lot. That would be 65' protoypical vs: the 35' actual. And there is an example in Philadelphia where the prototype radius was actually tighter than 35', like 33' or 32'. I came to the conclusion that these problems were why we didn't see a lot more trolley scenes on N scale layouts. Nothing available to get even close to acceptable appearance.

    I've been working on this and will be working up some protoypes in about six months for testing. It addresses these issues and more. And history says that could be years too so not making any promised claims.;)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  7. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    John, is there a way to have the Bandai or Tommy-Tec power modules free-float within the chassis or body? Possibly hang the modules from a ball-joint in the body roof? That way the modules might be able to swivel nearly +/- 90 degrees, limited by the slack in the power wires. Modules you've shown us with your Turtle units are mounted with pieces positioned between the truck and motor, sticking out sideways, mounted to the chassis, which severely limits the trucks' ability to swivel.
     
  8. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    An interesting thought but all I have tested with is 8 inch and the tight Peco #s 5 and 6 that are around 7.5 rad. and that was all I needed. However in messing with them the trucks swivel more than that and the videos I have reviewed of some operating on Japanese layouts they may be handling 6 inch or under. Might be an interesting experiment to see what they will take without climbing the rails. Maybe when I clear the workbench I can take a piece of flex and see what curvature I can get in it without destroying the flex. The trucks will almost swivel sideways before they disengage from the mechanism. I have both the Kato 105-107 series and the Bandai #3 and #5 that I can test.

    A quick postscript. Went searching on the web and the Tomix and Bandai mechanisms will handle 140 MM curvature. That is about 5.5 inches. However I have found the sometimes things will do better than the recommended so I may still test.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
  9. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    The Kato's have the closest axle C\L's at 11 mm 5' 9", just a little short, but I'm guessing they are also have a wheel diameter that's too large but that might actually work out acceptably if the wheels are a tad big but the the truck wheelbase a tad short as it will tend to fill the window closer to proper . The truck spacing is about 9/16" too long but does it look like it could be shortened, John? And shortening it could improve the turning radius slightly better than tested at full length.
     
  10. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Both of the Bandai chassis are all axles powered so there are two gear towers plus two drive shafts and a lot of engineering to shorten. However the Kato chassis with only one truck powered would be more easily shortened in fact I did a splice of two Kato mechanisms with two motors and both trucks powered because it was an easy mechanism to work with. There is some powered trucks out there which could work. Randgust has done a lot of work with them and the Kato chassis. You might just be able to get the radius you want with those.
     
  11. engineer bill

    engineer bill TrainBoard Supporter

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    Well this has a lot more problems then I thought, I now have a LL SW 1200 in pieces on the desk (never to run again). Too short of a wheel base plus being unable for the trucks to turn inside the body has brought the LL swap to an end. It would be so easy if replacement gears were available.....
     
  12. randgust

    randgust TrainBoard Member

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    Search for the "Plaza Japan" store on google - Ebay store. Once in there, search for "Tomytec Chassis". You'll see everything they have, and the dimensions for truck wheelbase, wheel dimensions, etc. are all there. They have both inside-contact and end-axle designs. so pay attention, but worst case even the end-axle contacts are not structural to the truck sideframes and the truck sideframes are add-on removable.

    The Tomytec ones have a plastic frame, so if you're game you can lengthen or shorthen them and splice the driveshaft with brass tube. That plastic frame means you can perform all kind of butchery on the concept if you have to, unlike a cast metal split frame. You look at the ones with the truck wheelbase you want, then look at a frame length that is close.

    Most have flywheels. They are fast but smooth and generally are near-Kato in quality. They will handle pretty absurd curves depending on the frame length, but most are made for the Tomix modular street track.

    I can't recommend the Bandai - nowhere near the same quality particularly on the wheels - the flanges/treads are much poorer than Kato. They are inside axle pickups though. The Kato 11-10X series are all end-axle pickups, which are great, but won't work for a PCC.

    I've put gearhead motors in them too, that's not particularly impossible. These are what power my powered boxcar kits and my Whitcomb 65-tonner.
     
  13. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    While I agree with Randgust on the quality of the Bandai as far as the first ones out, which were only one truck powered. The subsequent #3 and #5 chassis are vast improvements over that one. In fact I don't know if that one is even around anymore. I did get a chance to set down and take a section of Atlas flex and managed to get a tight curve that measured five inches between each inside rail from one side of the curve to the other. I'll let the mathematicians figure out the radius. For testing I pulled a Kato 11-106 out and a Bandai #3. Both handled the curvature fine.

    There is a Tomix chassis out that has an adjustable wheel base and it is covered in the video by a trolley modeler among others. That Tomix model may be what you want.
     
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  14. engineer bill

    engineer bill TrainBoard Supporter

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    That is some good info, I wish he would have popped them in the PCC he had on the bench, I do not think it will fit with any type side frame when the trucks are turning
     
  15. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    The PCC's don't have outside frames. Nothing really projects much past the wheel face, especially at full turn. The wheel is what would hit the inner body first. There is a brake bar that's riding just above the rails and on the rail C/L that drops to the rails for braking. It's just off the rails and measures 42" long, 5 1/8" high, beveled in at 30 degrees for the lowest 1 1/8" height, 1 1/2" wide at the bottom face that would engage the rail. That bar is mounted on a back plate that completes a 6" high assembly. The bar bolts through that plate with four bolts that have a 1 1/2" hex head and are spaced 7" in from each end, then another 8 3/4" in from those outermost two, leaving 11" between the center two. Along the bottom are 9/16" radiused pockets at 5 1/2" even spacing with 1/2" bolts (3/4" hex) clamping the replaceable brake material. The hex size in the center of the wheel is 7 1/2". There is a 1 7/8" hex retaining bolt in the center of that. On the ground is the calipers, yardstick, and tape measure used to take these measurements. ;)

    Edit add: The reported 6' truck wheelbase which I've never seen any different even in various detailed and dimensioned drawings I have, are in slight conflict on this one. This truck actually measured 6' 3" wheelbase. Close enough to 6' but... All other dimensions I got agreed to the fraction with the drawings I have, and to the best I could measure. There is another wheel style that has a relatively flat center with two bolt circles on it. There were also several different truck versions although they all had this basic appearance with the center brake bar and with no evidence to the contrary, I attribute the 3" discrepancy in wheelbase to those truck model variations.

    PCC Trolley 017.JPG
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
  16. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    So I have to ask, did we figure out the best option for a PCC shell? And what about the Brill?
     
  17. Inkaneer

    Inkaneer TrainBoard Member

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    I have two Tomix chassis that I am going to use for mechanisms for two West Penn Traction 700 cars. They have, as near as I can tell, about a 5" turning radius. Tomix makes an assortment of power chassis for four axle models. Bachmann also made a Peter Witt streetcar which is a good running mechanism. They were going on Ebay a while back for $40.00- $50.00 or so. Also Kato just had a poll asking which type of streetcar/interurban modelers would want. Don't know the results but a PCC was one of the selections. Of course it is unknown when or if such a model would be produced. The Bachmann PCC is old and poor quality from the split gears to the chunky body. NWSL did, atone time, offer new gears for Bachmann models
     
  18. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    I am still planning on a PCC chassis to fit under a Bachmann shell and maybe others as availability would dictate. It will be made with this specific application in mind so will have the proper wheel diameter (26") and proper wheelbase (6') as well as at least the most obvious features, the wheel face with hex center and the brake bar between the wheels properly represented. Some of the other key features will include capability for a very tight prototypical turn radius for town streets (2 5/8" or scale 35'+/-), all mechanisms below window height to allow for a believable interior, four wheels driven with eight wheel pickup, very low gearing for superb low speed control and scale top speed, and weight sufficient for reliable pickup. It will still be off in the future but the key operating components including gears, motors, 26" wheels, and the balance of the functioning power components have been made and thoroughly tested. It's give or take a year away.
     
  19. Garth-H

    Garth-H TrainBoard Supporter

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    there are two power units in the TomyTec Line that can be used to repower a PCC body, they are variable length chassis and designed for street railway running with smaller wheels and both trucks with pickup but only one powered with flywheel they are TM-TR01 and the newer TM-TR04 and you can find them on Hobby Search english (1999.co.jp/eng) pages in N scale section under Tomytec railway collection parts, cost is low and I find them very smooth operating, Tomytec has a whole collection of LRT models, where you buy the body and the chassis separately some quite suitable for modern day LRT operations, you will need to put some structure inside the PCC shell with styrene strips to fit down on these chassis, I found it quite easy to design a track brake and add it to the truck which is designed to accept a variety of truck side frames.
     
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  20. Onizukachan

    Onizukachan TrainBoard Supporter

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    I got mine from plaza japan when I ordered the track etc. takes about 2-3 weeks to arrive so plan ahead.

    Giving credit where credit is due, the TRo4 is perfect for the PCC, after you extend the wheelbase (it has 3 positions) And leaves you with tons of room inside the front and rear for lighting, a driver, etc.
    just to test it, I put a strip of roughly 1/16 foam atop the chassis and just set the shell on top of it. Seemed pretty close in height that way.

    No issues on the 103 radius turns.

    Now trying to research / translate the wheelbase extending instructions so I can do that correctly.
     
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