BLMA Bx-166 60' ATSF Beer Car 621560

Guys: If I can chime in here...

First, we appreciate the support of the products - that's without a doubt. But, this thread is full of assumptions based on two things:

(A) Comparing the models to other models (rather than the actual prototype).
(B) The impression or thought of what some think the color should be.

I'm proud to say we did a tremendous amount of research on the Bx-166, and made the color choices based on the information at hand (quality photos of the prototype). In fact, we went through numerous painted shells earlier this year to ensure our models accurately represented the as delivered (red) or repainted (brown) Bx-166. The reason this model (and many of our others) have body-mounted brown couplers, trainline air hoses, underbody brake detail and much more, is due to our philosophy that we should build models that look like the prototype - NOT other models. Comparing the model to anything but the prototype (new, not faded) is senseless. From the start, these models were developed with a blind-eye to anything but prototype information.

I present to you the following prototype images, to which you can compare the models (in proper, outdoor lighting), to see that we did our best to nail these colors.

1. The Indian Red we used is pictured on the two decorated models - please compare to the prototype shown below. (A different HO model pictured above for reference during our paint evaluation - it features the same red as the shell to the right).


The Brown car was closely matched to the following prototype image - an extremely recent re-paint (still missing some dimi-data).



I hope this research clears up why we chose the colors we did. Please note these prototype images are available on our website, and have been for the duration of this release. There will be no color change on future runs of these models as the colors depicted are correct for 'as delivered'.

 

Craig, thanks for "chiming in". And THANK YOU! These really are beautiful models.

Nevertheless, the shells in your middle photo don't look anything like the Indian red on the prototype car in the very next photo (#621444). It's clearly different unless the angle of the sunlight is playing tricks on the "as delivered" color of the car in the photo. That candy apple red is always the one I associate with "Shock Control".

And the comparison with other models was simply to emphasize the color the car came in and not a means of criticism.

 

Well it is time to revisit a post I had on the Atlas site about paint colors.

I had a great uncle who managed the B&O paint shop. Shortly before he passed away, we were talking about trains and my models. I asked him how strict they were with the paint? He asked me why, and I replied that there was a lot of arguing about paint colors on the forum sites. He laughed and said, don't you have anything better to do?

He went on to say that there was so much variation from batch to batch that often the same paint color came a shade or two different. In addition, some of the colors needed custom mixing, and they varied by who did the mix. And lastly, if they ran out of paint, they would run down to the local car dealership and get some. And he said all the roads had the same problems with batch to batch variance.

He was kind enough to give several things, among them was his paint log of every car and locomotive that passed through his shop, complete with the paint information. There are multiple trips to the Ford dealer for paint in the log. There are also mix recipes for some custom colors in there too.

So if the prototype was not so stubborn about paint, and close was good enough, why can't we be a little less stubborn?

 

Glenn: Thanks for the kind words.

Regarding the color, we have to agree to disagree. If you think the color circled below, and then cropped and pasted still doesn't "look anything like" the prototype below (and both featured in direct sunlight for a fair comparison), I don't know what to tell you. Your eyes are seeing things mine don't. That's as close as we could get. (The shell to the right was never even considered)

 

Interestingly, the color of the car on the BLMA website actually looks closer to the prototype than the car does in person.



But neither of them look like the indian red below. Again, unless the photo below is an optical illusion.

 

Maybe my sunlight photo is a fairer comparison. Much closer in this case, but still...

Again, I'm not arguing. I love the model! It just seems like it's not quite the "as delivered" red that I see in the prototype. This really is a fascinating discussion and I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience and knowledge Craig.

 

Nah, not stubborn. Just trying to grasp what I am seeing. I completely agree that variation was the standard on all roads. It's just that that was what BLMA says they were shooting for (#622444), and I'm seeing something different.

But I will say this, I think that what I'm seeing as different might be chalked up to the gloss on the "as delivered" prototype car in the photo above. BLMA's car paint is flatter and that may explain why it doesn't quite match the Indian red of the prototype.

Again, not a criticism. More an analysis of the results than anything else.

 

Craig,

I really appreciate you chiming in. These are the best models I have ever seen. However, I think Glennac nails it with the above photos. The photos on your website and the ones you posted above don't look like the car in my hands. The one in my hands has more brown. So I don't understand how this could be correct, since it does not match the photos on the website. I would love to see a comparison shot from you of the pre-production samples and your production run as they don't appear to be the same.

Regardless, I do hope that future runs look more like the color in your pre-production photos.

Thanks!

 

Peter,

The color of our pre-production models (pictured above) and the production models are exactly the same red. All of the variations you're seeing have to do with lighting, camera settings, etc.

Best Regards,

 

Guys, realize that you are looking at TWO DIFFERENT CARS. They were delivered in the roman lettering, with the "Super Shock Control", with the ACI label

The model car that has GOTHIC reporting marks is the first repaint scheme done by ATSF, I think in the 80's. You can't fairly compare that to the 'as delivered'. There are what, four different ATSF schemes for this car? Or at least three? Unless Craig chimes in and says they are the identical paint on the models, the only fair comparison here is 'as delivered vs. as delivered', which is what I have, and have inspected, and I think it's pretty darn good for color. I'll offer no opinion on anything out of my era.

One thing I have seen on ATSF repaints in general is no attempt at clearcoating or anti-fade on a lot of equipment repainted in-house. This is particularly noticeable on the CF7's. Having actually inspected old CF7's, they never got the final UV clearcoat - which explains why both the yellow and blue really went to pot as quickly as it did on those while others of the same era (factory delivered) held up much better (including rusting and peeling, BTW). Reds, yellows, and blues faded a lot more noticeably - and a lot faster - than the boxcar reds/browns.

I work with a shortline where we have some side-by-side comparisons of the same bright red paint on the same equipment painted six months apart - one with a UV clearcoat and one without, the one without is fading and pinking noticeably and the other one is still just fine. Both ten years old now and very visibly different at this point. You'd never believe it was the same paint.

I do think that the factory-delivered "Indian Red" gets botched up on a lot of models, but honestly, the only ones that I thought blew it so badly there was just no explaining it was the first run of Intermountain (Centralia Shops) Ce-1/2 cabooses. But even there - the second repaint of those cabooses (with red roofs and gothic reporting marks) was not the same Indian Red as the original 1967 paintwork - it was a lighter shade and not as intensely red.

 

Which is exactly what Craig does in Post #24 above with the image he attached and annotated. Notice he points BOTH the Roman and Gothic lettered cars to the prototype photo indicating they were both modeled after the prototype shown.

So based on Craigs' post, comparing the Gothic model to the Roman prototype is fair because that was what BLMA says they were trying to model. But as the images in Post #26 above show, even in direct sunlight, the colors are close, but not quite the same.

Again, I'll concede that the gloss coat on the prototype may be making the #621444 car look darker than it truly is and making the flatter BLMA model look lighter in comparison.

 

I think we modeler are all a little bit crazy about the right colors!?
A view day in the nice California sun and everything looks different!?

To run them on the Layout they also have to be weathered!

 

Wow, I am actually disgusted at some of these posts... BLMA is a fine company that makes excellent products and yet people here are complaining about colors... Did you all ever stop and think that maybe, just maybe not every one sees the exact same shade of color as the next guy?
Why do you all even care that much? It is an exquisitely detailed car and here you are talking trash over the color of the car when "As delivered" may have had several shades of red even during the same batches of cars on the production line.... Not even Auto manufacturers can recreate the color they used on a car some 40+ years old....
Color is definitely based on perception of an individuals eye....

You should be saying thank you may I have another....

 

Calm down nscaler. No one is talking "trash" or denigrating these beautiful models. And I did Thank Craig in an earlier post.

Merely making an observation about the outcome of the color alone. I'll repeat, none of this was a criticism. Simply an analysis based on what BLMA says themselves was the goal. With the model in hand I can say it doesn't match the prototype they themselves pointed to as the goal of the model.

That's all. Simply an observation. And I'm happy with the models.

 

First, different cameras render colors differently, jsut as there were differences in the film days.
Secondly, lighting makes colors look different,

And third, If you are not using a quality graphics monitor and profile it regularly, just shut up, cause monitors all affect color reproduction. What looks red on mine may look brown on yours.

Bill Pearce

 

Huh?

I don't understand. Why could there be a discussion of Kato's color choices for the COLA or the BLimited but not this? There are plenty of "color" discussions in these forums. There was even a "Color test - for bragging rights". It's just a discussion and not a complaint.

 

Sorry for trying to inject a little levity in this arcane discussion. Aside from the total impossibility of determining what's right from a photo on the internet, lets look at this more closely. So far, I've seen no one complain that the red on the boxcar doesn't match that on the IM CE cabooses, on on the Kato F7's. Guess what, those other cars are theoretically the exact same color! The ATSF called it Indian Red, forgive the un-PC name, but that's what they called it. We all know that there were a lot of mismatches depending on day, location of painting, etc, but unless everything red on the ATSF was painted at the same place at the same time, or better yet from the same can of paint, there will be differences. There are those of you that are freelance modelers, and if exact matches are what you want, fine, it's none of my business. For those who are trying to match the prototype, the variations are dead on! Oh, and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

You'll get no argument from me regarding variation on the roads. But BLMA is claiming it's dead on with #621444 (See post #24 above). All I'm saying is I'm not seeing it with the actual models in hand. Beautiful models as I've said. Just an observation and not a complaint.

 

I think you all crazy for arguing/opinionated over a model train car..I think its great either way and would love to have one. I have one close, but not this one. Can one truly be that anal over prototypical markings and paint jobs? Is the first thing you look at on a layout, to see if its correct period rolling stock or engines? Geesh...enjoy the hobby, don't fuss over pissy ace sheet. Its a good thing no body comes to my place like that..they will never make it in the door. Yea, my layout is far from prototypical as it comes...