Rick, there is absolutely no relationhsip between pulse power and momentum. Pulse power is introducing an AC current in addition to DC to get a locomotive to begin moving at a slower speed. Momentum is gradually increasing/decreasing the voltage output of the power supply so the locomotive starts up from a slow speed to increasing speed or reduces speed more slowly instead of more suddenly. It is to simulate prototype trains where great weight and gradual acceleration occurs. The two characteristics are separate and are implemented in unrelated ways. And, your friend who "deals with electronics" has a very narrow view of technology and the application thereof. Doug
Why? I keep reading here where momentum and pulse have been compared to being the same thing. At least twice and implied at least three of four times. That's why? Pulse has an added AC sine wave that is delivered in quick intervals to start a locomotive from a dead stop through that of a crawl and finally up to full speed. It is old school technology and because some of you demand it we still have it. Edit: Funny, but I think Doug and I actually agree on something. Alright. I think his answer and mine crossed each other on the way to TrainBoard. Continuing: A transistorized throttle delivers pure DC but with packets of power, intervals at a higher rate to cause the locomotive to start out at a much smoother crawl on up to full speed. By far a better performer and safer to deal with. Resulting in cooler running locomotives. This thread started out by the OP, as follows: "N0N-pulse power pack recommendation" Know I may not be as quick on my feet as I used to be but I think he asked for a power pack that doesn't have pulse. I don't know how or why it got steered to a Pulse discussion but I was trying to answer the OP's original question. He needs to look for a non-pulse power source for his model railroad. As per his request. It was the rest of you that turned it into a Pulse Power discussion. I've offered my two cents and you can take it anyway you want. What you run your model railroad with and how you power it up is of no concern or consequence to me. I don't have to deal with the end results and unwanted problems. You do. I've already been there and done that. Sigh! That's why? The friend? You'd be surprised who said that but because he lives in a glass house, well if you all start throwing stones. Naw, I'll just keep you guessing. What I'd recommend is the MRC, Control Master 20. Nice! Quick response, great start ups, responsive handling and yes it's tethered which is kind of a nuisance. Seems to me MRC could put out a wireless version. So, we good or did I piss off the bunch of you?
But Rick, nobody has said pulse and momentum are the same thing. The reason the discussion got steered to the aspects of pulse power is because the OP was told, in various ways, that pulse power is EVIL and should be avoided at all costs. We are addressing that issue and trying to dispel that urban legend and that's exactly what it is. Pulse power is still useful to get locos to start at lower speeds and more smoothly, even with the advent of lower-friction modern drives. And applied judiciously, it adds to the enjoyment of model railroading, especially if you like switching cars around into trains. Doug
I side on, "Yes it's evil," only because of the locomotives I lost while experimenting with it. I think the Pulse Power Transformer I had was evicted from my layout faster then any other transformer ever on my railroad property. I gave it to a friend, who gave it to a friend and then we all buried it in my back yard. Well, what do you expect from the son of a mortician. Happiest service we ever had. Why you guys continue to hang onto yours...well...actually that's ok with me. You have to live with it. I don't. Thanks for hearing me out. I appreciate the courtesies extended. Know I'm not in a court of law and I don't have to prepare a rebuttal. But for those of you with time on your hands. It's all here. Now can we shake hands and come out friends or does the ropes around me mean the fight has just begun. I didn't hear any bell! Take care.
Just as I thought those ropes and the funny short pants I'm wearing. Well...what can I say. Ding, there I heard it. Nearly every DC throttle made, from the 1970s to today, uses pulse power. Credit to Mmagliaro. What does that sound like to you? Ok, maybe I missed the point when I read several paragraphs out of several posts. As I reread the posts I discovered the misunderstanding is more then likely mine. However, this isn't the first time I've witnessed postings about Pulse versus Momentum and in the past there has been some very clear errors where both were called the same as in synonymously. Sure sounded like we were headed in that direction again. You are all to be complimented for keeping the discussion diverse and true to the subject. You got it right, well...most of the time. If you think I owe you an apology....not going to happen. However, I get real tired of eating humble pie without the ice cream. You can't blame me for wanting to make the point and make the distinction. If I didn't answer the OP's original question then you can yell at me and throw me off this website. Did I really say that? Now do all of you feel better? But Rick....grin! Now go have some fun with your toy train layouts and those cheap transformers. LOL Gosh, I didn't really say that did I. I did. Huhu ummm now I better duck and run. In coming.
Rick, just because we have disagreements on here doesn't mean we're not all still friends, as much as you can be friends on the 'net, anyway. You must remember, however, there are some, if not many, of us who have had considerable experience with electronics and know how it all works (there are those who know a lot more than me but I have been around awhile) and like everybody else to understand it also. That's why we may get a little insistent with our opinions if we recognize a problem in somebody's understanding. Heck even those who are experienced can get it wrong sometimes. Doug
You mean it's ok if some ignorant ...(you can fill the blank with any expletive of your choosing)..... like myself who knows very little about electronics gets it wrong. I'm not an electrical engineer, an electrician just a mortician. Hated that job and the experience as well. Got absolutely zip out of it. That was free and I won't charge you for that. When it comes to pulse power, I don't think I got it wrong at all. Pulse did not work for me period. I don't know how it could work with any efficiency for anybody else. Like Common Wire or Rail, your choice. It would be a good idea if we would allow them (pulse poser and common wire) to die a respectful death and say good bye to an annoying friend. With the advent of DCC, there is a serious opportunity to move or surge forward and leave this nonsense behind. Of course you understand those are my opinions based on my experience. Not good. As you already know I'm delighted with momentum. Without a question my choice in this discussion. You are so right and yes I consider you all friends. Like you said, as much as we can be here on the net. You did say that? Gosh! Net, is that synonymous with a fishing net? I know, I know just trying to make a funny and I don't even do that very well. Besides my fishing net ended up with a hole in it. I couldn't scoop a fish out of the lake if I wanted to. I have to look at this in a positive way. If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. How about that?
It sounds like me saying that every throttle made since the 1970s uses pulses. And I don't see any reference to the word "momentum" in my remarks. I also went on to explain in great detail a variety of types of pulses, and even cited a web site where a fellow has shown the output of a lot of throttle and power packs on a scope to prove that they are indeed using pulses, even the MRC Tech 7. And I did all that without ever mentioning momentum. Not even once. I stand by my statement that nearly every DC throttle made uses pulses. Sometimes they use square waves, sometimes you can switch the extra pulse generator on or off, sometimes it's just unfiltered half-wave sine pulses from the AC input, but the pulses are always there. The reason people keep thinking pulses are evil is because they are thinking of some of the brutal pulse generators from decades ago, and pulse power now is nothing like that, and it does indeed make motors run slower and better without harming them. I went through all that in my original post too (without discussing momentum). With regard to your other question, as to why we are discussing this when the original poster wanted a pulse-free throttle to run his engine, well, I can't speak for anybody else, but for myself, I brought this up because I think that you will find it nearly impossible to really find a "non pulse" throttle and I didn't want him to waste his time looking for such a thing. Even the ones that don't explicitly say so will still have pulses in the output. Now, I did not notice that he said his engine has a decoder in it, and I have already apologized for my mistake on that point, when it was pointed out by Robert. I agree, he should stay away from throttles that use PWM. But otherwise, any of the throttles that use half-wave sine pulses should work fine.
I recently used what I had assumed was a non-pulsed DC throttle to test the Direct-Bluetooth-Train-Control board. Things look ok but there was no Bluetooth signal. So I told the board manufacturer that I didn’t think he had gotten power connected to the Bluetooth circuit. I also mention that there was a very low level hum coming from the board. He quickly responded: “Do you mean that there is an audible noise coming from the units?”:question: On seeing this response, I immediately :wideeyes: knew that the problem was “me” and my “assuming”. The Bluetooth RF circuit did not like the pulsed power it was getting! :sweat: Bob
Does Bach-mann still make the E-Z Com-mand system? If so, what is the point here? You can buy that system cheaply on e-b-a-y & then sell it for just about what you paid for it, for a little more than what a cheap po-wer pack would sell for, and be way ahead of the game.
Mmagliaro and of course everyone tuned in here, When you said "Nearly every DC throttle" you implied every DC Throttle and that would include Momentum DC. You did not distinguish between the two. The implication is every DC Throttle has pulse power. Now we both now that isn't true but it would of helped if you had said so. Your presentation was excellent and I'd love to use it on BarstowRick.com as well as others comments here. But I can't do that without proper permission. If I ever get around to it, it would be entitled DC Pulse Power with clarification acknowledging this is not pulse power nor should it be confused as such. Should I post a discussion on BRick, I will refer to this thread and your post in particular. It's informative, it's correct and well written. However, that did not answer the OP's original question and the discussion here on Pulse Power did a nice job of side tracking the issue. Why some of you hang on to this dirty piece of pulse power technology is beyond me. Now what did I mean by that. It does not use a pure form of DC and uses AC to nudge the electric motor. As already determined. The OP would of been better off to hear answers to his question. There are more options with Momentum that would serve him better. Pull the flag down on the old technology and let it be a fallen flag. That would be the only point I was trying to make here. I might suggest. Now if you had me confused then what about others reading this? So, Barker it's your choice and now you know the pro's and con's. By now it should be clear to you the choice you need to make. No go build that layout the way you want to. Oh, I'm not insulted by your responses or even challenging me. I love a good discussion. Everything normal........
????? Since when does nearly every imply every????? Yes it would. Having momentum does not preclude a throttle from having pulse or vice-versa. A DC throttle can have pulse and no momentum, momentum and no pulse, momentum and pulse or neither.
No. When I said "Nearly every DC throttle", I meant every DC throttle, and that has nothing to do with whether that throttle has momentum or not. It has nothing to do with momentum at all. A momentum throttle automatically ramps up the DC voltage. It's a nice feature. But it has nothing at all to do with moving a train at slow speeds and nothing at all to do with pulse power. No, I don't know that isn't true. When I said "nearly every" that's exactly what I meant. And the only reason I said "nearly" instead of making it absolute, is that I haven't had every single throttle in my possession since the 1970s, and that fellow whose website I cited didn't test every single one either. Searching for a momentum throttle will not serve the OP better or worse. Those throttles still have pulse in them. I think that is the point where you are confusing this whole issue. To see that a throttle says it has "momentum" with no mention of pulse, does NOT mean that it doesn't use pulses on the DC to get good low speed performance. It does. Even the Tech 7 example you cited where you said it made no mention of pulse, does indeed put pulses on that DC output. It is not hanging on to old technology. It is a physical principle of the way electric motors work. Nicely made 5-pole conventional motors are still not able to rotate at speeds low enough, and with enough power, to move a locomotive at the creep and sub 5-mph speeds we want to see for smooth starts and nice switching. In fact, even the amazing coreless motors that I use in many of my engine rebuilds, as powerful and cog free as they are at low rpms, still show better performence with a little pulsing in the DC. The OP wanted a throttle that would work well with his engines while he waits to make the jump to DCC. He *assumed* that it would be necessary to find a throttle that is non-pulse. A big part of the reason this discussion about pulse power has come out in the context of his question is that it is false to assume that that one has to find a non-pulse throttle in order for it to work well with his engine. And further, he wanted good performance. If you could find a really pulse-free throttle, it would not work as well in his DC set up. Frankly, you are not helping the OP by continuing to label pulses as old technology that is to be avoided when in fact, every DC throttle still made uses them and they do not damage motors. Particularly this statement: "Why some of you hang on to this dirty piece of pulse power technology is beyond me. Now what did I mean by that. It does not use a pure form of DC and uses AC to nudge the electric motor." Is rubbish. That AC nudging the motor that you are referring to is the unrectified pulses from the AC sine wave. They are there in the Kato pack. They are there in the MRC packs. To the original poster, I am sorry for you that this thread has snaked around so much. It shouldn't be confusing. 1. Don't look for a "pulse free" throttle. Just look for something modern where the pulses are gentle, and your DC performance will be good and your decoder and motor will not be harmed. Any of the current crop of MRC packs should be fine. The Kato pack should be fine. Some folks liked the older Tech II 2500, but personally I would shy away from that one only because I found the pulses to be overly harsh. But honestly, I cannot say that it ever damaged a motor. I didn't own it long enough to really know that. That's just a personal preference of mine. 2. Don't worry about, momentum. Whether it's there or not, it has nothing to do with pulse power, and nobody here said it did. Having a momentum throttle doesn't mean you have pulses, and it doesn't mean you don't have pulses. It's just another, separate feature. Buying a "monentum" throttle is no guarantee that there are no pulses and almost certainly, there still will be.
Seems to me, we had this discussion on another website and if memory serves me correctly we ended it at the same spot. Some of this is semantics and some of this is technology. Look it's not my job to convince you or anyone else, as to whether you are right or wrong. Or for me to win the argument. So...... All eyes back on the last post and maybe this will all make sense or not. As for me, I'll stick with a transistorized throttle and the purest form of DC, I can get. Like I said earlier, I owned one of these "Pulse" transformers and it did not perform as well as the "Transistorized throttles". The one a friend of mine has he uses for old analog DC locomotives that require more amperage. In this application the pulse works well on them...to a point, but it doesn't on his newer locomotives and diesels. It's in storage and not likely to come back out. So choose for yourself.:frustrated: My position is the OP is correct he needs to look for a Transistorized Throttle, with Momentum. Safest form of DC, operates cooler running electric motors in your locomotives and the technology isn't Pulse. A safe venue for your train operations. An advancement over the old Pulse technology. MRC, Control Master 20 is what I'd recommend. Other alternatives if you can get them: MRC, Tech 3 Power Command Model 9500. I don't know who make this next one, Controller 35M with an adjustable momentum. By the way the only thing I see on the oscilloscope is a DC sine wave with a few distortion spikes...nothing more. Mr. M., Thanks for the come back and the clarification.
Correct. For more than 30 years my layout was operated by a group of transistor 'pulse' throttles that I built from a Peter Thorne design in Model Railroader magazine. IIRC, the pulse was just a small amount of unfiltered ("ripple") DC injected into the regulated output, and it never did any harm to any of my locos in all that time. The first few throttles that I built also had momentum and two stages of braking, facilitated by capacitors and resistors. The problem with both was that components that worked well for some motors worked poorly for others. I could have added pots to adjust the rates of momentum and braking, but chose to just remove those features and use the throttle to adjust the speed instead. Frankly, I always thought that momentum and braking were both unnecessary and a hindrance for a switching layout. My recommendation to the OP is to build his own throttle using any of the many circuits on the internet, and power it with a surplus 1A plug pack ("wall wart"). It's an interesting and rewarding exercise in itself. My throttles used a 2N3055 power transistor driven by a darlington transistor, but possibly better and simpler designs are now available. This is how my throttles looked in their final iteration. It's a tethered throttle, and attached to the fascia using velcro. Regards, Ron
locomcf... Ha! Another fellow "Peter Thorne" fan. My throttle is built from one of those circuits from that old book. It was a splended primer to model railroad electronics in my teenage years. RickH, We're fine. We're still friends... ha ha ! But do realize a few things. That ControlMaster 20 does indeed use pulses for its "nudge" slow-speed feature. As for what you see on the scope, that's exactly my point. DC should not have *any* sine wave. DC isn't a sine wave. It's a flat line. You are looking at pulsed DC. And the half or full sine wave pulses you see are great for moving motors at low speed without harm. That's all I've been trying to say. Throttle makers learned a long time ago that square of sawtooth or other types of waves made for lots of heat and noise even if they could get the balky motors moving. Now, they use chopped off sine pulses (or some of them use PWM, but we already know to avoid those for this DCC loco). So almost anything you buy now will have safe pulses in it, and having a momentum feature doesn't mean that it does or does not have those pulses. As for you suggestions, I agree, any of those throttles you cite should be just fine.
Mr M., and everyone else pro-pulse power. Ok you win this debate. What? What? What did I say? I didn't say that did I? I said not laughing. That's odd. Dang this is almost makes sense. Never mind my disbelieve. I think the problem is it's been advertised and talked up in various model railroad wig wags. One uses AC, spikes to break the inertia and cause the motor to turn. While the other uses DC spikes to do the same. Looks like pulse but is it? Pulse power as it was originally described to me is AC spikes and was copyrighted, as such. The transistorized throttle with it's refinements and pure DC used DC spikes to overcome the inertia. The copyright for one did not bridge over to the other. Should this pan out to be the same in the end, then well? Gosh. I've made a presentation over on BarstowRick.com. In all fairness not only to you but those who may read this later I felt they should hear both sides of the story. With all or your permission or not, I will reference this discussion here on TrainBoard, see: http://www.barstowrick.com/pulse-power-versus-momentum/ What I heard you say and I almost believe is both throttles use AC spikes to overcome the inertia. As you have touched on......then ask yourself does DCC use Pulse or Momentum? You want a hotter issue then this one. No thanks. Thanks for the comeback.
Barking Dogs Ranch, If you are currently following this thread you deserve a prize and a reasonable solution to your problem. Just send a Private Message to RT_Coker on this forum before 31 May 2015. Bob
