Oh yes, I didn't go back to the original plans to check. Excellent catch on your part. Great work with that track plan, as well! Alex
Yes, that is the Load Bearing Wall of the basement and I have placed 4x4 studs in the likely locations of where the beams will be with extra size until I actually know their locations. It will likely have double 2x4s at the door and exterior wall and a single 2x4 in the middle but don't yet know it's exact location so I have a 4x4 place holder in the middle...
OK, so I had a bit of insomnia and knocked out the lower level. Here's the skinny on this one: It features a modest freight yard which can be used for a bit of switching and/or staging. The double-track mainline splits up as it wraps around the helix enclosure so you get a "high line" and "low line" with dramatic trestles through the mountains. A mine with a switchback adds a token industry to serve (or not). Despite all of the rugged terrain, grades are very gentle, not needing to exceed 1%, although you can increase the drama of the curved trestle scene with 2% grades at each end. The switchback at the mine can be even steeper. The basic principle is simplicity. KISS, and the layout will be as reliable to run as it is visually exciting and realistic.
That is beautiful work, David! Insomnia sometimes paid off with designing and track work, does it? Haha. Really digging the idea of dramatic trestles. Darren, this is going to be one heck of a layout you'll be dealing with! Good luck on your model railroading!
DKS, Really nice work! I'm sure that anybody who decided to build this plan AS IS would be completely happy. I really like the broad curves and double-track mainline, as well as all the bridges (even though I'm not too hot on wooden trestles, I'd make the big curved bridges from ME steel viaduct parts, more in keeping for a class-1 railroad). Because of my own preferences (prejudices??), on the lower level I'd insert a long, curved center siding between the rear-tracks elevated line tunnel portal, over the lower mainline, over the river and coming together just short of the curved trestles. A center siding of 9 to 11 feet could very easily be inserted here using Atlas 55 #7's and 3.5 Wye's. The center siding is a great tool for both a passing siding and a crossover, which is why the U.P. uses them in mountainous territory. In this instance if the OP needed to park part of his local on the mainline while the engines switched the "mine", both east and west-bound trains could be diverted around it. A crossover between the east bound mainline (right hand running) and the center siding would allow more versatility for switching and parking this important customer's loads and empties. For instance, cars from the "mine" could be spotted on the center siding waiting to be picked up by trains traveling both east and west. Frankly, Instead of a "mine", I'd do a concrete plant, which would allow a wider variety of freight cars to be picked up and set out. As for the trackage, tunnels and bridges on the lower level loop adjacent to the upper level engine facilities, I'd widen up the center-to-center distance just a bit, and bore twin tunnels instead of double-track tunnels (a more western feature due to the need for "high-pressure" tunnel bores and the normal procedure of having laid a single track mainline first, then coming back years later and laying another. Also, single-track bridges would be easier to model (more available models) using a variety of deck bridges or Central Valley Truss Bridge kits where the track is straight. Kinda like this: Just something to think about and absolutely personal preference on all suggestions. As it is, it's a really nice roundy-round, rail-fanning layout with opportunities for limited operation, which fits the OP's stated requirements exactly. Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
Version #6 OK, coming back in for more punishment First of all, want to send out a huge THANK YOU for all the great feedback so far!!! I'm still looking to maintain the concept that I presented in Version#5 but have taken in the feedback and made adjustments to hopefully fixed some of the major issues that I will not present back for more feedback. I will start off this Version#6 as if it was a brand new topic; so with that... Completed my 6th major revision to my first ot two proposed retirement projects; still a few years out from really starting... Looking for constructive feedback (Good or Bad) and yes I know this is not your typical design and thus not Prototyipical and it's also Track Heavy and Helix Centric in design by design. This is for the first of two major layouts I hope to spend my time on in the coming years; this be N-Scale and the other to be HO-Scale. I already have large rosters of both from years of collecting. Major Goals: Minimum of 2 Independent Main Lines that can be compined into a long single Main Line (Track Heavy) Multi Deck (Helix Centric) - Likely limited to two decks Has to fit in the ROW that the Wife and I have already agreed too Support by my roster that includes Long Passenger Cars and 6-Wheel Engines; and maybe Steam (4-6-6-4) Era - Not specific / Various - Let the era be viewed base on the roster currently running (span a century) Setting - Rouged Rocky Mountains; Near 2% grades with several tunnels, canyons, river crossings, etc. Be capible of Operator-less DC (Let them run) but will look at DCC before finalize plans Continuous Loop Willness to accept tight radii (roster minimums) with Edge-to-Edge running to maximize space Willingness for Duck-Under for hidden access but must be Walk-Around for all viewing, photos, videos One thing I have found with my presentations as people "Don't Get It" so I have tried to but in more time with details and have broken out the design into 26+ screen shots so I can try to better explain the concept via showing things from Bottom to Top in layers. The design uses a continuous climbing Figure-8 type path... OK, with that, let me start posting the screen shots starting with these first two to explain the space and the ROW within it. Oh yes, the doors will remain as is; part of the agreement with the wife who is already being gracious enough to allow passage through one wall in the basement... Figure-A: A basement storage room that will become my N-Scale Train Room Figure-B: ROW To maximize the space I am willing to go down to 30" aisle to get the needed radii for the roster. Given the doors open into the space and the needed access to a Shelf, the aisles have been set accordingly. You can also see where the ROW passes through a small wall into the Family Room where it will pass above my desk; limiting to backword to have to be at least 47" above the floor in this section AND leave access to our basement Fire Escape. The Fireplace is not used so I will build right up against it but not bolt anything into it; the bechwork will be support from below. To the right of where the layout pass through the wall will be a cabinet that will hide the Helix from view but accessible; see the PINK folding door ways that can be open/closed as well as have access to the interior from below the physical helix...
Figure-C: Heavy Benchwork The above layer shows where I think the heavy benchwork will be to support the lower Deck #1 as well as postions to pass upward to support Deck#2. The brighter Yellow area will be the planned "Hidden Access" areas for the Helix as well as to the Hidden Track from all Tunnels... Figure-D: More of the Bechwork Given this room is a storage room I have worked in below Benchwork storage areas for storing all the thigs I plan to keep. For looks these will have cabinet doors on them but will also allow access to the layout above when needed. Note the heavy 4x4 (or dual 2x4) posts in somw places as well as the "L" girder supports to hold the benchwork over the desk... Figure-E: Deck #1 (Tunnel & Mining Districts) OK, time to place Deck #1 on top of the Bachwork. Planning to go with solid plywood and build on top of that. You can now see the location / size of the three (3) Hidden Access holes that will be accessible via two different Duck-Under locations. Deck #1 is my Rouged Rocky Mountain Tunnel District that includes a deep River Canyon on the eastern section that will have a View Block seperation from the main layout area. The northern section by my desk will be my Winter Zone with a Mine. There are planned Lakes and Rivers shown in this diagram as well. You can also see the 2x4 and 4x4 supports are will be heading up to Deck #2 to support it as well Also not the Helix is setup the a 4-Track as welkl as a 2-Track; The outer for planned Upward traffic and the inner for downward traffic of the two main lines... Figure F: Helix - 2-Track Ineer loops Ok, lets put some track on this beast. To best explain the concept / design I will start with the Helix that has two tracks exiting the Helix Cabinet into the Mining District just above my Desk
Figure G: Mining District As mentioed earlier, you will notice a heavy usage of a Figure-8 through out the design. Track #1 (GREEN) will be my Primary Passenger Serice track in two train operation mode. Track #2 (BLUE) thus will be my Primary Freight Train track. Note Track #2 has access to a Wye that takes you over to a Mine. Both tracks will drop down 2" in elivation using two trestles. Clearance will be a minimum of 2" on all track crossings while maintaining grades of 2% or less... Figure H - Deck #1 (Palmer Lake Siding) Here begins the madness of this design with both Track #1 and Track #1 passing "through" Helix Cabinet in front to the Helix itself, passing round a lake and then reach seperate sidings for both tracks before passing around the bend into the heart of the Tunnel District. Figure I: Deck #1 Hudson Canyon and High Line Here, my Passenger Liners (Track #1/GREEN) will operate along the bottom of the canyon right near the waterline of the River; same as the D&RGW and other railroads of COlorados past once did. The Fright Trains (Track#2/BLUE) will actaully be hidden under the steep canyon wall; only popping out briefly over a bride crossing the river. Access to this hidded track will be the the exterior side. The "Vew; here is either from looking "Over the Canyon Edge" or fro m "River" level down through the canyon. A D&RGW type landmark will also be part of this canyon (details later). It's now the Fright Lines turn to live on the edge along the "High Line" a term folks that know the Durago and Silverton will understand. The Passenger line will still be hidden until they both reach the curve and become parallel tracks once again. Figure J: Crossing the Delaware Creek / Falls Once again, both tracks start into a Figure-8 path while making there 2% (or less) grade passing over Delaware Creek into a tunnel and exiting once again up at the Falls passing over another tressle. Both tracks will then pass around the outside of the mountains in this area
Figure K: Upper Hudson Canyon We continue our climb and Figure-8 path cross over the tracks. This time it's the Freight Train (Track #2/Blue) that enters into the Hudson River Cayon on the far side of the river while the Passenger Train (Track#1 / Green) remains hidden behind the View block. Note the Freight Train is now passing Over/Above the hidden section from earlier and now several inches above the river. Figure L: Deck #1 - Twin High Bridges With both tracks now clear of the River Canyon they will cross over Delaware Creek one last time over two Long / High Bridges and they nearly complete their tough climb up the Rocky Mts crossing over the tracks they once started their climb on. Figure M: Deck #1: Far View With both tracks now beyond the Rough Mountains they make their turn towards to Helix with Delaware Crrek and Falls now in the distance with only one final tunnel to enter taking the trains back into the Helix Cabinet... Figure N:n Deck #1 to Deck #2 tranistion Both trains now enter the Outer section of the Helix to make a few loops to make the final climb to Deck #2. This is the only area where it's a Quad-Helix. On this diagram I have also placed the likely locations of the tunnel portals and you can see that each are accessible from one or two of the three hidden access areas from below the benchwork. The farthest reach being about 30" but I can easily reach 33" given my long arms while all the rest are within the 24" or less reach range... You can now see both Main Lines of Deck #1 that start and end in the Helix Cabinet...
Figure O: Deck #2 - City and North Yard Distrincts Deck #2 is know added to the layers. Nearly the exact same shape as Deck #1 with the exception on the eastern end where it will be shorter allowing vertical views down into Deck #1 River Canyon. Here too I will note the Hidden Access areas from the Mountain District that will give me access to the Lift_Outs for access to the interior of the City District. Figure P: Lower City Siding Here the two Mainline Tracks exit from the Helix and pass through the Lower City siding before entering into the City District... Figure Q: City District No additional track shown but adding in the City and showing that the Lower City Siding sits visable but under the Upper City Siding... Figure R: Union Station and Trenches In this section, the Passenger Train (Track #1 / GREEN) splits away and breaks into four tracks heading underneath Union Station. The Freight Train (Track #2 / BLUE) slipts off to enter into a Trench passing under several roadways of the city. If you look at Figure P above this is the part of Deck #2 that passes between the two Lift-Outs. Both tracks rejoin their parallel path as they both climb out of their trenchs
Figure S: Warehouse / Street Runner With both tracks out of the trenches, the Freight line will become a Street Runner while passing through the Warehouse section of the city. The Passenger line will swing wide as both tracks pass the D&H Manor as they head into the Upper City Siding Figure T: Upper City Siding Now past D&H Manor, both tracks pass through Upper City Siding with the Freight Line also having access to a Card Yard as well as can head for North Yard (Coming next). Both tracks now head for the Helix to enter into the Inner Helix loops to return downward to Deck #1 completing the loop... Figure U: North Yard Note the North Yard is setup to be mixed era with both an old Roundhouse as well as modern facilities so depending on angle of view it could be seeing as various eras. The City itself will be setup with old Buildings such as those still found today in Colorado Mountain communities of Narrow & Stand Gauge RR towns. So, this will also allow mixed era viewing... Figure V: Lift Outs This view is to show the three Ligt-Outs now that you have my Deck #2 conceptal design. Yes, the Roundhouse is sitting over the Helix and can be removed as needed for maintenance. Note, all Switches/Turn-out are in the open which was one of the major issues pointed out in earlier designs...
OK, last post telling the story of this design I am looking for feedback on... Here is a few 3D images of Deck #1 and Deck #1 to get a feel for how this might look... Figure W: 3D Image #1 of Deck #1 Figure X: 3D Image #2 of Deck #1 Figure Y: 3D Image #3 of Deck #1 Note the View up the River Canyon Figure Z: Figure Y: 3D Image of Deck #2 Yes, I know, it's a bit(OK maybe more than a bit) crazy but I am seriously looking for feedback...
I would have to say I am definitely with DKS on this one, as is common. He has provided a workable, interesting, reliable, doable plan. I would not do other than that plan.\ Respectfully, Gary L Lake Dillensnyder
I gotta jump in here and speak my peace. SL, you are being given the best advice by David and the others. I pray you have not begun laying track, as it's near mid-Feb. now ! All those goofy, psychedelic computerized plans have no validity if suggesting a logical, proto-like MRR ! It looks more like a schematic of the inside of a computer chip ! Sorry, I'm the tough love guy around here. I believe in telling it like it is ! You have so much redundancy and angular tangents , 90deg, tight curves with useless, wasteful turntable leads from too many places. There is nothing proto about it ! Six Flags Magic Mountain might have a use for these plans. But, sorry, a 'RR Empire it' ain't. We are all trying to warn you about all your mistakes, yet you keep posting more of those colorful 'blue prints'.. Geesh, and it's tiny N Scale ! I wish I had this room for my HO apartment layout ! We're not flaming here. It's more like stupefied ! There are, in today's world SO, so many treatises in the thousands, from 'How too's' to clubs (+THIS very club), books at stores, magazines, ( I read "Trains" more than "MRRer" to 'see' how they do it ). For your own good and well being listen to what we're trying to get across to you. A RR has to flow whether you are only into viewing it or displaying it. And, though I don't understand it, it's quite OK if you aren't into running it and may wish too have it run itself while you're (what ?!) watching TV or on the net. But, would you rather watch Salma Hayek going round and round, or Larry King ? It's that simple ! I believe you may be caught in a mind-set. You feel you have the answer for a MRR empire. But what you have, as someone else said, a spaghetti bowl. Except the noodles aren't even soft enough yet for serving ! Snap out of it brother !
All's good guys as I don't mind getting negative feedback as long as it's done in a constructive manner and I believe that is what you are all doing... I have been listing very hard to Dave's comments and did make some adjustments while working to maintain the tough Rocky Mountain Tunnel District vision which his design doesn't have This current Deck #1 design is actually inspired from a HO layout (11x22) in MRR (August 2013). Yes, I added complexity of a parallel second mainline and added an additional loop to climb up to Deck #2 rather than stay on a single deck. I used their Staging Area for the River Canyon. But, if you look at what they did for this Kettle Valley RR there are many similarities without the buildings be part of the design I am working towards currently...
So, why not just copy this ? Other than a tad roundy-round-ish (I'm a strict point to point advocate ), what's to improve ? ! I surrender !!
LOL!!!!! For me, I completely HATE Point-to-Point layouts but that's becuase I do like to sit back and watch trains go "roundy-round". I'm getting great advise from other sources too that I'm taking in... And Mark, no construction will be happening for likely another year of more so maybe I will break away from this concept and worse maybe you will grow to like it. Ok, that's more than a stretch...
