Greetings all! Soliciting any and all advice, comments, criticisms for my new layout that will begin construction after the holidays. Era: 1955-ish in SW U.S. I have a UP Big Boy #4005 and the UP CoLA along with a ficticious excursion service with a 4-4-0 American, 2 Ten-Wheelers and 18 Overtons. I plan on getting a Morning Daylight GS-4 (beautiful train!), a 4-6-6-4 Challenger, and a couple 2-8-0 Consolidations for some steam freight. The CoLA A-B-B-A will probably be my only deisel. Grade: 0% grade with two levels 5" apart connected by a ~37" diameter helix (1/8" tempered masonite) with a ~2.78% grade. The upper line that runs over the helix will have a grade necessary to clear the top of the helix. (Haven't calculated it yet, but it should easily work). Overall Size of room: 13' x 14' with a 2' x 8' section out of one corner. (166 sqft.) Scale: N-Scale (1:160) Roadbed: Super-thin foam sheets I found at Michaels (for sound-deadening) under Unitrack on top of 3/4" plywood Control System: Digitrax Zephyr Xtra (will upgrade as needed) Crew size: 1-3 Minimum Radius: 15" at center of easments. Track height: 55-60" connected by 2.78% grade helix Track system: Kato Unitrack (Walthers Turntable) Turnout Minimum: #4 in the yards and #6 on mainlines. Turnout control: Digitrax DS64s Aisle Widths: 24" Construction method: L-Girder with risers under elevated sections.
Do I have 2 continuous loops? I have the one on the upper level, but the other has a return loop and either the helix or the turntable. Am I missing something? Also, Unitrack only has #4s and #6s. Is there a better way (other than not using Unitrack) to organize the switches? In terms of operations, is there something I can do better? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Unless I've missed something, I only see one continuous loop and a return loop. I do wonder how well a 4-6-6-4 will negotiate some of the smaller turnouts? Just curious- Where you have the wye, at illustration top edge, what will be happening with those three tracks? One is a tail track. The others?
Boxcab, I hope the Big Boy and Challenger will handle the turnouts okay. Has anyone heard of them having problems on Unitrack turnouts at all? I have a heckuva lot of Unitrack and would hate to have to get rid of it all! :crying: The three tracks are a stub terminal for a little town I will have up there with the tourist excursion trains (2 Ten Wheelers and a 4-4-0 American I hope to install a Z scale decoder in someday.
Well C.Dubya, looks like you've got a lot of U.P. engines there...a Big Boy and a Challenger, along with some 2-8-0's (in the future) and at least one prominent U.P. Streamliner, the COLA. You also like your future purchase of an SP Daylight, and your 2-10-2's and Overtons might pass for Western Roads stuff. In my opinion (remember, this just MY opinion) you're off to a good start with your motive power and trains you plan to run, which is obviously western-railroad-oriented. You've got a nice room to build your empire in, and you could easily double your space if you double-decked it. I also like your 1955 time-period, which is the Transition Era for both UP and SP, allowing you to run both 2nd and 1st generation diesels, along with UP Baby and Veranda Gas-Turbines. You can also run a lot of passenger trains in that era...not just two...but...as many as 20 (each and every day on the UP) where Big Boys and Challengers ran. However, the Southwest is not where the UP ran. They ran up north through Wyoming, through Utah, then south to Los Angeles, or north to Pocatello and through the Blue Mountains to Oregon and Washington. SP also ran into Utah, and both the UP and SP met at "The Crossroads of the West" in Ogden. Two other railroads also met in Ogden, the D&RGW and the WP...and a shortline known as "The Bamberger" which ran up into Idaho down and south of Salt Lake City. The perfect place and time for you have the trains you want to run along with the engines you would be part of the UP east of Ogden, Ogden, and the SP west of Ogden into California. The design would have Ogden, with its lovely and modern Italian Renaissance Union Station, both UP and SP engine servicing facilities, each having its own roundhouse, turntable and other facilities, a huge PFE icing platform for PFE reefer blocks, passenger interchange where UP and SP motive power would trade off at Union Station and mess with a few cars too before heading north, south, east or west. The Ogden U.P. engine facilities were home to Big Boys, Challengers, 2-10-2's, 2-8-0's, Light USRA Mikes and Heavy UP MacArthurs (Mikados) along with a lot of diesels too....F's, Alco FA/FB's, GP-7's and GP-9's, RS's, NW-2's and SW-2's...and many others. There was a 15 stall roundhouse there (the most modern U.P. design) along with the biggest turntable in the world, with a large steel coaling tower, sanding facilities and water treatment plant. Just a mile north of the U.P. facilities was the SP roundhouse, turntable and engine facilities. The roundhouse got torn down in 1955, so it still could be easily fudged into your layout. It too had a large turntable and extensive engine facilities including a large engine transfer table, but by 1955, most of the motive power that inhabited the facilities were diesels...Alco PA/PB's (in Daylight paint), F's in Black Widow paint and others. Steam engines were older AC cab-forwards, the occasional AC-9 (a cab-backwards cab-forward), and GS's and MT's in both black and Daylight colors. The company who ran the Ogden Yard, the O.U.R.& D. leased both U.P. and S.P. switchers and ran them side by side in the yard...U.P. in Armour Yellow, and S.P. in Black Tiger Stripe! The D&RGW also had a small turntable and a three-stall roundhouse on the north end of the yard, along with a small yard, which was separate from the U.P. and S.P. yards. Industries that directly serviced the railroad were the PFE icing platform, the Ogden Union Stockyards and the Swift & Co. slaughterhouse, the largest of such facilities west of Chicago. Several large grain elevators are very prominent in photos taken at that time, and are still standing in Ogden, particularly the Sperry Flour elevator, with its big red letters spelling out its name on the bins. There was also a very large Freight station, with covered platforms to service less-than-carload freight just north of Union Station. Passenger trains that were seen every day in 1955 at the Station were The San Francisco Overland, City of San Francisco, City of St. Louis, Pony Express, Gold Coast, City of Los Angeles, Los Angeles Limited, Fast Mail, Butte Special, The Idahoan, Northwest Special, The Prospector, and the Park City Mixed. These were broken apart, switched, motive power changed, linen and food resupplied, crews changed, and were pulled by both U.P. and S.P. motive power, with GS-4's and GS-5's being the main steam power from the West, being pulled out by U.P. FEF-2's and FEF-3's in black and two-tone gray...the 844 being one of them. Some diesel-dragged passenger trains also traded power, with S.P.'s in Daylight colors trading off to U.P.'s in Streamliner colors. Mail trains were pulled by GS-4's in black or Daylight colors, then U.P. coupled up at Ogden and went East through Weber and Echo Canyons with FEF-3's and FEF-2's in black or two tone gray...with their large "Elephant Ear" smoke lifters. Some U.P. Passenger trains coming from the North were often pulled by Challengers as well as steam generator equipped F's and FEF's. Freights also got switched around in Ogden yard too, with motive power changes particularly with PFE reefer blocks, which were mostly pulled by Big Boys or Gas Turbines. The Baby and Veranda Turbines needed helpers to get from Ogden to Wahsatch (67 miles) so, usually a 3700 class oil-fired Challenger would couple up to the back to shove, with its yellow caboose on the back. Big Boys rarely needed helpers, but they'd periodically either double-head if there was a power transfer needed, or call on the 3700 class Challengers or the 2-10-2's to shove to Wahsatch. Double-headed Big Boys would proceed together to Green River. S.P. went west across the Great Salt Lake via the Lucin Cutoff, which was a huge, low and miles long wooden trestle, straight as an arrow (except for one kink) for miles and miles across the hyper salty water of the northern part of the lake. How do I know so much about this? I'm building a large portable layout that represents the U.P. between 1947 thru 1956 that includes Ogden and the Wasatch Grade through Weber and Echo Canyons to Wahsatch, where the helpers get cut off and come back light into Ogden to be turned and get on the back of another east-bound 4200 ton freight. Since my layout is modular, it will eventually occupy an approximately 40' X 40' space (including isle access), but will be single-decked. The problem I see with your layout is that your Big Boy and COLA aren't going to look "at home" on any part of your layout. You're building a "generic" track plan, and to run your big engines, and both your U.P. specific engines and trains, along with your S.P. trains, in my opinion you need to model some "signature scenes" that capture the "look" of each prototype. You've got plenty of room to do so, especially with a double-decked layout, with Ogden and environs in the middle, with double-tracked left-hand running mainlines going East...and single tracked S.P. mainlines heading West into Nevada and California. I can envision the lower level being UP and Ogden, with a helix representing the transition of S.P. into Nevada and California...the upper deck being signature scenes on the S.P. so your Daylight and maybe Cab-forwards (you DO want some cab-forwards don't you?) will look like they belong there. BUT, it would involve a complete make-over, and you probably wouldn't get away with using Kato Unitrack, which looks terrible under finely detailed Athearn Big Boys, Challengers, and any other recent steam power available in N-scale. I'd suggest going with Atlas 55 turnouts and using Micro Engineering code 55 flex, as well as ME #6 turnouts to compliment the #5, #7 and #10 Atlas 55 turnouts. 15" minimum radius is a bit small from a cosmetic standpoint, but your Big Boys and Challengers will run around them, they just won't look very good. I'd suggest you consider a different sort of radius standard, which would be to have a 20" VISIBLE minimum mainline radius, with a 16" mainline minimum radius where it isn't so obvious. Also, with flex track you can use spiral easements to greatly decrease the obvious hangovers of long cars and engines when going into a curve. You can't do that with Kato Unitrack. #6 turnouts have an effective 18" radius on the diverging rails, so your articulated engines should run just fine on them. It's good that you've gone with DCC to begin with, and the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra is a very good basic starter system and any wiring you do will be extremely easy to just plug into another Digitrax Command Station if the need ever arises. Adding wireless radio throttles is easy as pie, but when you start to think about wiring, please ask and I'll give you some good pointers that will save you a bundle of time and money because I totally re-wired my layout four years ago to accommodate my new Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio system. This has been fun, and good luck with your layout. Although you don't have many diesels now, they'd fit right in with your time period, along with U.P. Veranda Gas Turbines, but, my opinion is the U.P. stuff needs to run on double tracked mainlines, of which, you have none. An excellent book all about railroading in Ogden is available from the Union Pacific Historical Society, or Warren's Trains (at the Ogden Union Station), and is written by Don Strack and is called "Ogden Rails, A History of Railroading at the Crossroads of the West" and is full of photos, maps and diagrams of Ogden in the 1955 time period. Another invaluable resource is Don Strack's "Utah Rails" website here: http://utahrails.net/ with lots of photos and information. To maybe get you thinking, here are some photos of my U.P. layout during your time period (which is also mine), representing real places in both Weber and Echo Canyons: Photo (1) Wilhemina Pass, just east of Devil's Slide Utah: Photo (2) West End of Echo Yard. Big Boy posing for a publicity shot with a PFE reefer block: Photo (3) Weber Canyon East of Ogden. Big Boy on the west-bound line, with a recently shopped FEF-3 pushing on the rear of an east-bound 3800 ton freight: Photo (4) Echo Curve, just east of Echo, with the Echo Cliffs and the Lincoln Highway behind Big Boy 4023, pulling a reefer Block. A west-bound freight with a U.P. CA-1 caboose will stop at the signal to allow wheels to cool before proceeding into Ogden: Photo (5) Echo Utah. Some of my Big Boys and Challengers at the Echo Yard. Hand laid code 55 turnouts & Railcraft (ME) code 55 flex. Code 40 hand-laid turnouts and track in foreground: Photo (6) Weber Canyon East of Ogden: USRA Light Mikado with characteristic fat U.P. "Sweeny Stack" on the head-end of the Park City Local headed on its daily trip to Echo to switch, then onto the Park City Branch to pick up and set out cars, pick up and drop off passengers (they ride in the caboose), then return to Ogden in the early evening: Photo (7) Sometimes my son's SP stuff runs on U.P. trackage. Here's an S.P. MT-4 pulling a Daylight consist at Echo Curve: Photo (8) Here's the Park City Local again, this time in 1965, which has been running a GP-9 for ten years, replacing the Light Mike. It's pulling into Echo on the hand-laid code 40 trackage representing the light rail of the branchline, with the two superelevated U.P. mainlines of Echo Curve behind it and a new CA-8 steel caboose on the rear behind the delapidated old 50' PFE reefer headed for the scrap yard: Well, that'll about do it. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, but you've got a wonderful opportunity to run your engines and trains on terrain and scenery that looks like where they ran in reality. Merry Christmas! Cheerio! Bob Gilmore
Holy mega-post, Batman! Robert, if you're having trouble getting any modeling done, I think I've found your problem... [winkies] But seriously, Mr. Johnson, I'm not as anti-Unitrack as my esteemed colleague, Mr. Gilmore--it looks better painted and re-ballasted, and "pseudo-easements" can be made using longer-radius sections--but I agree their available curves and switches limit your options to borderline-too-tight ones. But Unitrack aside, I'd offer up some recommendations on improvements for the plan itself. For starters, your aisles are rather tight; 36" is recommended as a minimum. Then, that helix sucks up a lot of real estate right where you're trying to build a yard, which compresses it into a small, awkward-looking shape that limits its usefulness. Plus, in addition to creating some potential access issues, the helix is a single track connection, which means trains that have gone "up" must be reversed in order to come back "down." Instead, I'd use some of your layout's generous real estate to make a pair of connecting ramps, which will be much easier to build and offer more operational versatility. I'd also greatly reduce the "jiggles" in the mainlines to cut down on the number of S-turns. And finally, that long duck-under bridge across the front is trouble in the making: a duck-under is a pain in the neck (back, legs, etc.) and it poses some scenic problems. Some food for thought... Red is lower level, blue is upper, pink lines are graded connectors. Minimum radius is 19", all switches #6, all stock track. And if you're willing to cut a few custom track sections, it could get more interesting...
To the contrary DKS, this is what I do when I've got the flu, can't sleep because I'm coughing my guts out and it's Christmas Eve...and it's a subject I can just type away about without doing any more research on! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!! I also am not "anti" Kato Unitrack. It has its uses, and I agree that it looks "better" painted and ballasted. However for C.W.'s L-girder benchwork and permanent layout, I'm convinced that there are better choices, although your plan is a big step up and addresses the minimum radius problem as well as the huge duck-under prob. Frankly, I just hate to see really finely detailed modern steam engine models running on track that doesn't look "right"...and no amount of painting or ballasting is going to make Unitrack look "right" and change that funky, oversized rail profile. With C.W's engines and preferences, IMO he needs more double-track mainlines, which can be done with Unitrack (re: MR's Salt Lake Route project layout), but he gets a little of that on your design, with UP, SP, some D&RGW interchange at the yard, with the lower level representing UP, and the upper level representing SP. There's room for some signature scenes on both levels so the only place the two roads are mixing it up on the same track would be at the yard/station. That'd work just fine. When looking at your track plan, it appears to me that a double track loop could be incorporated into the lower level, with unfortunately, a lot of it hidden underneath scenery. However, it would add hugely to the rail fanning aspect, allowing easy running of both east and west-bound trains...and no irritating appearance of the COLA appearing on the east-bound main, just as the domed observation car passed your nose on the west-bound main. But, it's up to C.W. This board has missed your sharp humor and excellent visualizations. I, for one, am glad you're back for a bit at least.
Gentlemen, this is great stuff! I have one of the experts here in San Diego working with me on this as well, and he is considering all of your advice as well. We might just decide on a two (or even three) level layout with Ogden as the main hub so that I can satisfy all my wants and still stay somewhat prototypical. More to come!
