And in yet another mild rant about decals

John Moore Sep 10, 2013

  1. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Now I do acknowledge that I have gotten almost as old as dirt and along with it my eyesight certainly is not what it was as little as just five years ago. But dang it do they have to cut corners so bad that the decals are almost not usable to me. Now I can understand a smaller sheet than HO but even smaller to the point that the small numbers and lettering are so close together I can barely cut them out with my very fine sharp decal scissors. What do I need very fine obsidian blade scissors? The little stuff is so close together that the blade of the scissors prevents me from seeing if I'm getting parts of the above or below lettering and numbers. And used to be that you could cut a small strip of reflective squares and each one was separately applied and affixed to the strip. Not anymore, each little square has to be cut out.

    I have older decals and I just took a look at my NP steam sheet vs my GN steam sheet. The newer GN sheet is smaller and everything is basically run together. The older NP steam sheet on the other hand has each set of tender capacities and other lettering clearly separated and much easier to cut out. Even with my old eyes I can tell that my scissor blades are between each data line clearly. The newer sheets are so bad that even with my optivisor with the stronger set of lenses plus the set of flip down oculars for even more magnification It is getting hard to get a single line of data. They have reduced the sheet size, crammed the data closer together, and raised the price yet again to almost double what it was a few years ago. And the quality seems to have also gone downhill with one sheet found smeared like it got stuffed in the envelope when still wet. I think these folks have started to slip from being quality producers of N scale decals to being cheap so so producers. About time for some independents to step in and give these folks a run for their money.:frustrated:
     
  2. mhampton

    mhampton TrainBoard Member

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    Preach it, brother!
     
  3. Carl Sowell

    Carl Sowell TrainBoard Supporter

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    AMEN ! ! !
     
  4. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    I can loan you my precision laser paper cutter that is numerically controlled from an electron microscope. However you will need a precision robotic decal applicator to successfully mount the decals.
     
  5. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Hmm now that's an idea. Or maybe I can train Deekus the Cat. She can spot a No see um at 25 feet and has extremely sharp fine claws. She will spend hours laying in the window watching me work on the N scale stuff so I know she likes trains.
     
  6. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

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    You don't use an Xacto blade for cutting? Scissors may crinkle up the edge of the decal film, thus making it harder to settle smoothly against the model surface.
    To see what's where, I have 2 methods (I use these for white decals tho it could work with any color): use a shadow box and glass plate, where you set the decal on the glass with a light in the box underneath. You want to mask off any glass around the decal so you don't see the light directly. The lettering of the decal is thicker on the decal sheet than the plain sheet, so you can see where faint shadow letters are. Then cut out the exact data you want with an Xacto, right on the glass. This works even for teeny weeny print, tho you might have to look close (or magnify) to see it.
    Method 2 is setting the decal on a flat surface then bringing a light source down to near the surface but off to the side, so it shines across the decal sheet. Same factors: the decal lettering is raised higher that the sheet itself, so you can see where it is. The same principle as when the sun is directly overhead a vertical brick wall -- the slanting light illuminates the brick faces, but not the inset mortar joints.
    My lament about N decals is they are really just reduced versions of the original HO proofs. So very small lettering gets shrunk down to shriveled unreadable marks, like the loco designation numbers on the NH diesel sheet.
    :crying:
     
  7. C. Giustra

    C. Giustra TrainBoard Member

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    Ah yes, issues with decals. Not sure why they have to use stark white backing paper. Seems to me a light gray or even yellow would take care of a lot of visibility issues. Might be hard to see light gray decals, but white far out ways gray.
    My issue is the number board numbers. How hard is it to produce the actual numbers? They do all the research on paint schemes, so why not run of the series of correct number boards? I hate having to put those numbers on one at a time!
     
  8. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Not just any scissors but ones specifically designed for decal cutting in both curved and straight blade, and surgical scissors known as iris scissors which are extremely sharp. I had my eye surgeon use a pair of those on me during a procedure. Same as a scapel which some of the Exacto blades are also except these are a lot sharper. But when the data lettering is so close that the edge of the Exacto can obscure the area between them you may or may not get lucky.

    As far as the decal sheet color yes darker would help. But they are not white at least mine aren't. Somewhere between a very light pale blue and a very light pale mint green.

    Putting a photo up here that shows the differences between older and new and some in between ages. The far right is what I am grumping about. Does 6 locos and the lettering is so close as to be hardly able to discern the lines. The 2nd from the right is much older by about ten years. Does 10 locos. Both sheets include loco class data for the cab and dome lettering plus tender data. The difference is how the 2nd is spaced out so that it is easy to get at each set of data. The first mentioned has about an inch of space on the side and bottom where the data could have been spaced out more making it far easier to get to.

    And there is no standardization of sheet sizes so it is not an issue of getting data to fit the sheet by a proper layout and spacing. The two sheets on the left side are probably the best layout and spacing. In fact the Turtle Creek sheet contains both HO and N scale decals.

    [​IMG]

    And a sub rant within the rant.

    One other issue that I have noticed over the years is less on the sheets. The above noted difference between the GN and NP sheets is an example. I get 6 locos off the newer while I get 10 off of the older. Noting the same issues as far as the quantity that can be done with car decals also. Less and less per sheet at increased prices. And of course it is not just with decals it seems. Smaller paint bottles with less in them at higher prices. Next thing it will be smaller packs of do it yourself couplers with 6 sets instead of 10 in them and of course $2 more a pack.

    Limped out to the store the other day to get some vittles and picked up a box of Cheezits Crackers. Hmm 1/3rd less box size and almost $1 more for the box. Probably a good reason that one of the beer brands has the slogan less filling. Yea due to the can design there is less in the can now thus less filling per can. Instead of a 6 pack you are probably getting a 5.5 pack at a buck more.
     
  9. oldrk

    oldrk TrainBoard Supporter

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    But there is no inflation......
     
  10. Run8Racing

    Run8Racing TrainBoard Member

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    John Moore, it happened with beer several years ago. My brand stopped packaging 30-packs and went back to 24-packs, for the same price. Their claim was ,"Now it's double-Krausened" , as if normal people even know what that is !!! I compared some of the old stuff with the new, and found no difference, except the cost.
     
  11. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    When they finally mess with my 7-11 wine of the year, MD50-50 made with 10% formaldehyde to preserve those youthful looks, it will be total unrestricted warfare. Time to end this rant and go downstairs to eat my morning brunch of Fruit Loops in the new smaller box.
     
  12. steamghost

    steamghost TrainBoard Member

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    Don't forget the microfiltered water from that underground Antarctic lake and milspec titanium/unobtainium CNC tweezers. Uh, you've GOT those already? Okay, sorry.

    Suggest you try out other brands that are sharper originally and stay sharp longer. Even the good old single edge razor blades have been sharper (but dulled quicker IIRC), though I haven't bought any in recent years. There are disposable scalpels, too, which can be resharpened if you really want. Or buy da good scissors like John Moore has, but avoid the temptation for using them for other purposes like cutting 1/4" Core Ten steel.

    Here's another. The revised NWP decal sheet is an amalgam of two earlier sheets and includes stuff for the old semi-unrelated RR. You may know the later RR had a SP black widow type scheme with a big logo that covered most of the long hood. You get one logo per sheet. I suppose you can paint one engine side for NWP and the other in North Coast colors. Sorta like Red Skelton in "A Southern Yankee".

    As for Cheez-Its, beer and the like just buy em on sale as they seem to be on sale often. As for creeping product shrinkage, consider that manufacturers typically have to pay huge slotting fees to get their products on store shelves.
     
  13. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    I actually prefer the single edge razor blade over the Exacto knife for the sharper and finer cut and buy them by the 100 pack at the local home improvement store. Just broke out a fresh one to split a decal stripe that was too wide. Semi blind right now from doing steam number boards and gave up early on the new decal and went to the old NP steam decal sheet because the spacing made it far easier to cut out the individual numbers I needed to.
     
  14. SP&S #750

    SP&S #750 TrainBoard Member

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    it's ok John, I agree and hope independent companies outdo the major decal ones. I'm gonna need SP&S decals like a bugger in a while once I all my locomotives bought and painted. my goal is to get all of SP&S's diesels painted, decaled, and running.
     
  15. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    About the only decals for SP&S out there are for the Es, F's, FAs and the various small switchers and road switchers. The other is a sheet of boxcar decals that covers the different classes of boxcars if it is still around. Caboose, passenger, and steam are non existent and have to be cobbled together from the other sheets plus some GN and NP Pine Tree scheme decals and car data sheets since there are no decals for the woodchip gons, flats, tankcars or any of the M of W.

    The one saving grace is that the ratio of SP&S cars to both parents cars and other roads in a consist was only about 10-15% of the total.
     
  16. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    An element which seems to be most in stock these days....
     
  17. SP&S #750

    SP&S #750 TrainBoard Member

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    I know that you told me this, I am saying though that if an independent company did take up printing decals for passenger, caboose, steam, mow, woodchip gons, flats, and tank cars. They'd probably make plenty from all of the SP&S/hill line N scalers looking for decals for cars.
     
  18. Backshop

    Backshop TrainBoard Member

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    Anybody here made up a proof sheet of SP&S decals they want and send it to MicroScale to see what they think?
     
  19. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    The biggest problem is in getting enough people and enough copies to make them affordable to the individual. Now if the HO folks bailed in on it then it gets better. There are three schemes that would need to be done. First the all green, then the four stripe scheme, which both could be done using the same sheet, and lastly the broad stripe scheme with the side yellow band. Folks into serious SP&S modeling would use both decals since all three color and lettering schemes existed during the latter years. The last time somebody made SP&S passenger car decals it was Champ.
     
  20. mmagliaro

    mmagliaro TrainBoard Member

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    Hey, man, I'm in there pitchin'. That's how I got these done!
    (Did art, sent to Microscale, they revised and cleaned it up, and did the run)
    http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?154266-SP-amp-S-Steam-Loco-Decals-Available

    I will say this... you may think that if these decals were available, that they would "probably make plenty",
    but I think the manufacturers know that isn't true, which is why they don't make them. I can tell you from
    my own experience that I didn't expect many people to need the steam decals, and I was right.

    The demand just isn't there, even though I (and you) have a voracious need for these.

    I'm digging, hunting, and begging sources to see about SP&S passenger car (heavyweight) decals
    as we speak. Another Holy Grail.
     

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