OK, I'm starting to get serious in designing my future N Scale layout but need a few pointers. Lisa and I still need to work out some ROW limits but basically I'm heading into a basement bedroom and maybe an extension into the family room that will either be just the Double-Helix or Double-Helix & City/Yard area between the Helix and Bedroom. So, I have a few upfront questions that will likely lead to more questions. My initial question is Minimum Radii given my roster of equipment I've been collecting over the years (Click Here) as I will want to go as tight as I can. My main area of concern would be my passenger consists (Adirondack Consist #1, Laurentian Consist #1,and Montreal Limited Consist #1) which would likely be pulled by multiple 6-Axle PA's. I'm looking at a Loop Style "DC" layout that is a walk-around using two of the physical walls leaving the other two open as aisles. I will also plan to go vertical with either 2 or 3 levels. Track #1 / #2 would be on Level #1, Track #3 / #4 on Level #2. Would like to have a Double Slip switch setup so a trains can either us each track separately or have a single train use the Double Slip to use both tracks as one. The Inner Helix would be for downward travel from Level #2 to Level#1 and the Outer Helix for Upward travel. So what would be your recommended minimum Curve Radii, and Turnout #. I've been messing around in CAD using 13.75", 15.00" , 16.25" and 17.00" curves and #5 and #7 turnouts to try different designs but now I need to know what is reality for my roster. Also feel free to ask questions of me as well and yes I will post room floor plans as well soon too...
Current ROW Limits Here is the current ROW limits being discussed (in yellow) and "I hope" to expand over to the window on the far right passing the bench-work "over" the desk. So the Helix right now would be to the left of the Fireplace (38"x38") and the track would pass through the wall onto the main layout area in the "Train Room". We don't use the Fireplace so having the bench-work pass over/near it's opening is not a concern. The "Train Room" has two small windows that are up near the ceiling as the basement is underground and the room is already Heated/Cooled year around. If I can get the additional ROW it would be gaining a 38" deep bench-work all the way over to the window on the right and I would move the Helix over to the far right next to that window. So, basically I have a solid 8ft x 9ft zone to work with plus the 3ft x 3ft behind the door as well as a 3ft x 3ft area outside the room for the Helix that would have easy access to it and doesn't need to be hidden by scenery given it's location.
Darren, congrats on the new plan and space! One thing I will caution you: passenger cars (and esp PA-1s) like lots of room on curves. PA-1s are my preferred track defect finders, as they are sooooo darned picky about the way you lay track. They WILL find kinks, uneven sections, gaps, ad nauseum, and derail. It is crucial to lay track as smoothly as possible. What track do you plan to use? Atlas c55 looks great, but is very picky as to how it is laid. Atlas c80 is nearly bulletproof, but the un-prototypical rail height can be a distraction to some. Kato Unitrak is pricey, but reliable; it also (like Atlas c80) doesn't have the most north American appearance that IMO gives c55 the edge. As I mentioned above, you need lots of space for passenger trains. Personally, I would go no tighter than 15". You can get away with tighter, but the tradeoff for car overhang and operational challenges increases the tighter you go. My current layout has the mainline set at 16" IIRC. The car overhang looks a little silly at overhead viewing angles. The siding is 14" rad I think.
No decision on track yet so insight on that is great info - Thanks! The tightest curve radii would be in the helix itself as the inner track so any overhang there won't be a visual issue. What about turnouts? :question:
Hi, when you keep in mind the construction of the helix might need support at the outside, the minimum radius could be a 15" and 16,25" combination. IMHO #6 or #7 turnouts are the minimum for passenger cars. If your choice is for Atlas c55 track #10's are available for crossovers. I do understand what you are after in terms of a general concept. When you want a walk-along kind of layout, your plan will not necessarily be an oval. So having two "loops" or ovals, crossing each other by a double-slip-switch will become rather track heavy; 4 tracks along every section of your layout. It might have its influence on the minimum radius in the helix area too. Smile Paul
Disgn Concepts being played with Visualize a Grid Label system for the squares as "A" through "N" across the top and "1" through "9" down the side. I'm thinking about using a 9-12" deep bench-work from A1 to H1 where it would have 4 tracks. Two of them would be Track #1/#2 for Left-Bound and two of them would be for Track #1/#2 Right-bound. Either the Left-Bound or the Right-Bound would be at the same elevation for the one and only Cross-Over for the level. The other direction for Track #1 / #2 would have a ~3" difference in elevation with Track #1 potentially "hidden" under Track #2 so only three of the 4 tracks would be visible. Access to the hidden track would be a simple reach under the bench-work. The 3x3 Area of I1 through K3 would be for a 180+ degree turn of Track #1/#2 as well as allow the Inner Helix to enter onto Track #1 (downward path) and for Track #2 to exit into the Outer Helix (upward). The Inner-Helix would make one more rotation to give me a 2+ inch clearance to go under the Outer-Helix and thus give elevation difference for Track #1 and Track #2 to use the same space. Continuing this thought using a 9-12" deep bench-work from A1 to A8 would also have 4 tracks; likely the same part of Track #1 being hidden and potential one direction of Track #2 also being in a "Tunnel" it entered in A1. At "A8" the four tracks separate onto the main bench-work in the middle of the room. I'm thinking having a View Block between A8 / A9 through F8 / F9 so viewing from the "Shelf" Area one would see two tracks exit tunnels at different elevations around B9 / A9 and head along a 9-12" depth using Row#9 of the grid. Both tracks would eventually turn upward onto the main bench-work in the middle of the room.. Using B2 through C7 as a Aisle the other two tracks now turn in-front of the Dead-End Aisle at different elevations with one of both tracks heading from D8 to D4. At some point the two tracks that passed in front of the Shelf Area behind the View Block would meet up with the two tracks that stayed in front of the View bock to complete the loops of Track #1 and Track #2. Below is a quick image of how that described bench-work would start to take shape within the ROW area. Note the Aisles will be roughly 24-30" within the interior of the Walk-around which I know is a bit tight but this is an "Operator-less" DC design and mainly only Lisa and I being the Viewers. Helix traffic to Level #2 would have a similar / identical bench-work and concept for Track #3 / #4 and if there is a Level #3, Track #5 would be up there by itself without any Cross-over so Row "1" and "A" would likely only be 6-9" in depth since it would only be two tracks not 4 in those areas. I'm not sure how much separation I will have between levels so that will dictate in Level #3 happens or not and the separation between levels will be 100% controlled by the Helix Entrance / Exit elevations. After that Track #1/#2 and Track #3/#4 will have an elevation difference of 2-3 inches excepted where they need to grade to a common Cross-over at an elevation between them so the Cross-Over will likely be somewhere near the Upper-Left corner either before or after the turn.
Congrats on the new layout space, looks great for N-Scale! Plus with the desk area a mini crew lounge could be put in. Are you planning on using a computer program to mock up the layout plan? I found using the computer was a great tool for planning my layout (and future layouts even is only vaporware).
Yes, I will work out the design using one or more CAD software programs to make sure things will work in the space before ever starting construction. From input I have gotten here and other forums it looks like the Double Helix will need to be a 15.00" / 16.25" combo with a thin baseboard construction within the helix to give as much clearance as possible as well as trying to keep the grade down within the helix. I'm thinking Threaded Rod for construction but would love to get input on Helix construction from those that have done these...
Helix That looks like an impressive layout space. On your question about the Helix radius: I use a 17.75 inch (=45 cm) radius constant curve helix. The resulting grade is 2.25%. And I wish that I had build it with just a little bit bigger radius. Most trains make it up and down just fine, but there is some limitations you want to consider: Steam Engines: Some long-wheelbase engines will get in trouble. I have an Oriental Northern and a More Challenger: Both will not fit and derail. The Con-Cor S2 Northern is fine, also the CC 2-10-2 and all Athearn / RR Challengers. Getting up is not the problem (just pile more engines in front of the train), but getting down can be. Light cars at the front of the train will be pushed out and derail, often followed by a fall to the tiled floor.... We have specific blocking instructions that does not allow certain cars at the front of the train. The IM '40 Woddchip Gons are the worst "offenders": Very difficult to hide weight in an empty car and a high center of gravity. 2.25% puts the ruling grade on my layout into the helix. Not a good idea, as any stall will be in the helix... 17.75 inches will allow you to stand in the helix, but it will feel cramped. So I would recommend to go with a larger radius overall, but specifically in the helix section. Cheers Dirk
Thanks Paul - I have another post coming shortly with some thoughts I been playing with as well but input like this is very much appreciated!!!! Thanks Dirk - I might be able to get away with that as the outer Helix so I will definitely keep that in mind. My N-Scale roster is nearly 100% diesel so it's more my longer passenger cars I am concerned with but who knows I might get some D&H Steam someday. This is why I'm trying things out in CAD and putting them out for folks to review and comment / suggest so keep them coming!!!
HELIX / Level #1 OK, based on comments I get earlier from various forums, right now I thinking about a Double Helix at 16.25" / 15.00". Remember I'm thinking DC thus the Inner Helix would be Downward traffic only and the Outer for Upward traffic. I'm thinking Level #1 for a 2-Track design that will use a Double-Slip allowing a single train to travel over both tracks to double the length of the loop of two trains traveling each track separately. Track #1 would be lower then Track #2 except where they meet at the Cross-Over. Looks like I will need to go no lower then a 15" curve, use #7 turnouts w/ a 71" curve for side track switching and user #10 Turnouts with 11.25 crossing for the Double-slip design. I'm not hard set on the heavy track design but trying to see if the space can support the concept With that here is a potential design showing a Double-Helix and the Side Track; one that would attach to Track#1 (Inbound) and the other to attach to Track #2 (Outbound)
Is the door next to the helix area removeable? Or at least can be re-hung on the other side of the doorway (to swing back against the same wall as the other door)? Or swing out toward the fireplace?
The door by the Helix will remain "As Is" for various reasons. The other door is to a small closet and will normally be closed. That wall contains various photographs so I would not want to cover them with a door being open
Track #1 from the Helix Here is a potential beginning of Track #1 that I have been playing with and also a placement of the Double-Slip switch to get back-n-forth to Track #2. About 50% of what you see of Track #1 would be hidden that I will show later and nearly all the track behind the entrance door from the Family Room wouldbe hidden so the door being open would just be part of the View Block; at least that is where my head is at currently...
Darren -- Forgive me for being blunt here, but to me it seems like you are going down the same planning path as you did for your H0 scale twin peaks multi-layered-wedding-cake plans a while back - you seemingly keep focusing on using helixes and multiple decks to maximize layout surface area and increase run length, instead of focusing on selecting a few things to model well in the available space. Stein
Stein, This is not the Twin-Peak design I have been trying to squeeze in as an HO layout; but, yes there will be some similarities. My layout vision is based on living in Rocky Mountain Narrow Gauge territory where trains did and still do dart in-n-out of tunnels, hang along cliff walls in deep canyons and tracks that loop back over themselves in very short distances using trestles over tunnels. Do you have any knowledge of the Tunnel District in Colorado or know the history of railroads such a RGS, DSL&P, DUP, MT, CC, C&S, D&RGW, etc as they operated just west of Denver? This is my backyard where railroads served hard rock mining, where trains out of Denver had to climb from 5,000ft to 11,000ft in extremely rouged territory and to keep grades down they blasted tunnels, built trestles, went down a dead-end canyon to just come out the other side at a high elevation. If my design seems a bit spaghetti like that is what railroads had to do here in Colorado Rockies I also run a DC (not DCC) roster so to have 2 or more trains running at the same time they will need their own tracks and why not take advantage of height when you 6'5". This layout won't have operators, it's flip the ON switch and let them run either one train running the entire mainline using a Helix to pass between levels, one train / level, or 2 trains per level if I can design something that supports that which is what I'm trying to do. Basically if I can have 4 or 5 trains running simultaneously in a rouged mountain scene then I have 100% achieve my layout dream. What to you have against that concept?
Track #2 to the Helix Here is my potential beginnings for Track #2 and how it would hook up with the Double-Slip. Track #2 would be on the same Level as Track #1 but higher except were they meet at the Double-Slip. About 50% of this portion of Track #2 would be hidden (will show later) but mainly the track behind the door as it enters a tunnel making the 180 degree turn and the section of Track #2 that passed under itself is what is hidden.
