Laying Peco code 55 track using caulk: problems

First time for both. Peco track & using clear acrylic caulk as an adhesive. Used the caulk a hundred times, but never for this.

Problems are;
1. The rail joiners are smaller than Atlas (which I had little trouble with 15 years ago). They look better, but are hard to slide on after the rail has been cut which is ok for contact, but what happens is due to the size and design of the joiner, there isn't enough 'lip' on each end of the joiner to act as a guide for the heel of the rail to slide into the slot unlike Atlas. This is especially true with turnouts.

2. The other problem is the 'mess' from the caulk that was spread over the roadbed. Before I just used nails to hold the track in place. No mess. Now, you apply the caulk first, after your sure the track fits, then place the track, then try to get the joiners to line up (problem #1). In doing so, you wind up getting caulk all over your hands including the rail itself.

I thought about placing the track, no caulk, lining it up, then with a putty knife lift up the track and apply the caulk, somehow spreading the caulk out with a 2nd blade.

 

I know that it seems like caulk or liquid nails is a common method for securing track, and have always thought there were better alternatives. I use and have always used CA to hold my track down. It is invisible after applying it and holds the track very well. I apply a few drops every few inches which holds nicely until I do my ballasting. Another reason I use CA is that I can lay the track down, align it perfectly, and THEN glue the track in place, instead of gluing first and trying to align after.

I have never liked how messy caulk is, and have heard of others having issues with track lifting after time. I actually cover laying track on my Marias Pass in the May/Jun issue of NSR.

www.nscaleaddiction.blogspot.com

 

Ok, you got my attention.
How many drops,
how often
how does it get underneath the ties to adhere to the roadbed,
how about it attacking the roadbed itself?

 

Videobruce,

I am a Peco/caulk devotee so let me ask you a couple questions and supply some of my experiences/techniques.

Are you using Peco flex track sections? One thing that really helps get to those small rail joiners on is to make a good clean cut on the rail. I’ve been pretty happy using Xuron cutters. If you are using code 55 that very tiny channel the rail joiner has to slide into can get deformed and be a real pain if you use a dull pair of cutters. Also, cutting from side to side rather than from top to bottom yields a better cut and fewer problems sliding the rail joiner on. Again, referring to code 55, If you find you need more than your fingers to slide the rail joiner on then that little channel has probably gotten gunked up. Try running an exacto blade down the channel to clean out any burrs. If you’re using code 80 you can take a small screw driver and open the joiner ends up very slightly and they will slide on much easier. Problem with this trick is if you open up the joiner too much then it won’t hold the rail in place correctly and you won’t have a perfectly aligned joint at the connection.

How much caulk are you using? When I first started using caulk for a track/roadbed adhesive you should have seen the mess I was creating. After some more trial and refinement I found that you need a lot less caulk than one may originally think. For roadbed you only need a bead ¼ or less. When it’s spread out real thin along the centerline it’s enough to affix both sides of the roadbed. For gluing the track, even a thinner bead (1/8”) is needed. I spread out the caulk with my finger (pick one and only one to use as a tool or you’ll end up with caulk everywhere and you certainly don’t want that). I always have lots of paper towels handy so I can keep my “tool” clean when not using it for spreading caulk.

As for the sequence for joining, gluing here’s my technique. I use flex track but this should work for sectional track as well. I work in sections one or two flex piece(s) at a time.
First, I get the pieces cut, shaped and joined temporarily so I can ensure a tight joint, then carefully test fit them on the roadbed. I can now make small tweaks if necessary. Make a small mark to the side of the roadbed at the end of the track sections you are going to lay so you know where to start and stop the caulk application. Set the sections off to the side and get out the caulk. Remember, a very small bead is all that’s necessary. Spread out the caulk using your finger. Get it spread real thin. If it’s much thicker than a sheet of paper it’s going to squish up between the ties. Even if it is clear it’ll get in the way of the ballast if you choose to ballast your track. After you wipe your finger off real good set the track in place and join it to the adjacent piece that’s already fixed in place. It should slide together easy since you’ve already test fit it. Gently press the track into the thin layer of caulk and double check that it’s exactly in the place you want it. Apply weights ( I prefer wine bottles http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/552/layout_0071.jpg ) and let dry. Remember you’ve got 10-15 minutes time before the caulk starts to dry so take your time. When you want to affix a turnout you need to mark carefully where the moveable parts of the turnout will go so you can avoid those areas when spreading out the caulk

Another advantage of caulk is if you change your mind and want to later pull up your track it comes up relatively easy (providing you didn’t use a ton of caulk). Using a flexible utility knife you can pry it up without destroying it.

Hope that helps,
Brian

 

Yes on the Peco flex,
Yes using a Xuron rail nipper,

Understood.

Understood.

Doesn't sound as it is enough, especially for curves & turnouts. I know I was probably using too much, but I was worried that it wouldn't hold.

 

I used Alleen's tacky glue for cork roadbed and for fasteneing PECO code 55 to the roadbed. The tacky glue holds the track on curves very well. I place some lead weights on the track untill it is cured. Why tacky glue? If I need to make changes to the roadbed or track I lay a small towell over the area, pour some boiling hot water and let it sit for 10-15 minutes. The glue loosens, make the needed adjustment, let dry again and it is as strong as ever. If I had used CA or a caulk the roadbed and rail would most likely have to be repalced.

Carl

 

I use as much CA as needed to hold the track in place. It doesn't take much, and if applied between the ties, the CA flows nicely and secures the plastic ties tightly to the cork. In many cases, I like to glue my track in place and then solder the rail joiners since I know the rail won't move around on me.

For cork roadbed I simply use wood glue and thumb tacks to hold the cork as it dries.

Here is a photo of some track on the Marias Pass. It has been secured with CA, the joiners have been soldered, and extra ties have been placed under the gap, and secured with CA. It is about as clean an application of adhesive as you can find. Of course the CA is really only temporary until I pour and secure the ballast. However, I did the same thing on my son's HO layout, and it is not ballasted. 3 years later and the track is as secure as when I laid it.

I'm not suggesting that this is the best solution out there, but use the caulk on the bathtub and try something that is a bit more suitable for N scale applications.

 

For what it is worth, I have never used anything but straight pins to hold the trackdown till ballasted in with a 33-33-33 mix of white glue, water and 70% alcohol.

 

Like Mr. Sowell's point for tacky glue as I put in/pull up track often. Never have had any track once set loosen using cheap caulk.

Why is this an inappropriate use for Nscale? (HuskerN shore do 'em nice trackwork but ??? psheesh!)

 

A good set of files is needed when rail is cut to smooth off the cut edges. As far as using liquid nails or caulk I have never used it with track, only with roadbed, and then sparingly using track nails to secure the roadbed which I leave in place after the adhesives set. Track is set using track nails in the holes provided or additional holes are drilled if needed. Care has to be taken with track nails in that they can distort the plastic ties and then rail gauge if driven too deeply. Once the ballast is applied and then the glue set that track isn't moving as the glue holding the ballast to the track and roadbed locks it in place. For glue I like to use Elmers Carpenters Glue for the roadbed/cork since it doesn't mess with any foam base and Elmers while glue for the ballast, with a application of water with a few drops of dish detergent added, to spread it through the ballast. In the way back when there used to be a product called ballast cement which I haven't seen for awhile now. Essentially it was a powder that was mixed with the ballast and then the ballast applied, and once it was like you wanted it, water with a wetting agent such as a drop of dish detergent or alcohol water was applied. I used it and like it for its simplicity in use, but it did set like a concrete bunker.

As several wise sages have noted, it is best to do any tie or rail painting before ballasting or tacking down.

 

Railroad Bill,

As I stated, I am not suggesting that my method is the best, however, with all of the various adhesives, chemicals, and other substances out there, it just seems like caulk or liquid nails would be at the bottom of the list. I know it is a common practice, but it's like putting together a tiny delicate N scale model with an over-sized Elmer's glue stick. I never said that it was "inappropriate" for Nscale, but rather that there are more suitable alternatives (in my opinion).

to reiterate why I like CA:
it allows me to align my track first, THEN add a few drops to secure
on curves I can use a few thumb tacks to hold into place, align perfectly, then glue it without having to move the track
CA flows well around the ties where it makes contact with the cork
CA is invisible when it dries (nothing oozes in between the ties or spreads all over your cork)
CA is not messy, and you don't get CA on your hands when applying, unless you are sloppy
You can actually still remove the track if needed by using a putty knife or something to pry the track up
maybe most importantly, CA bonds instantly, so there is no need to hold the track in place with weight or nails, waiting for something else to dry.

I realize my best practices are not everyone else's best practices. I have nothing against caulk. I use it all the time around my house.

in the end, it's all about what you are used to and comfortable with. The title of this thread was "problems with caulk", so I think I make a compelling argument on how to resolve the issue.

 

Gee, all along I've been using CA for the bathtub. You are the first to suggest this. I mentioned that to some others and they seem to frown on the idea.

Regular small head straight pins or 'push' pins with the large plastic head? If you were referring to the almost invisible straight pins, how do you remember where all those pins are when you are ready to ballast??

I was aware of this, but was trying to get by without filing, but it seems I will have to attend to the problem. It wasn't a problem with Atlas 80 15 years ago.

I should start a poll as there doesn't seem to be any consensus on what to use.

 

I really wanted to avoid using nails since I did before and somewhat regretted it.
But, since you mentioned it, now that I'm using a 1/2" foam base (over ply) those nails wouldn't be long enough to go into the wood. Would they even hold just going thru roadbed & foam??

Questions;
A few drops how often on curves and on straights?
Where is the best place to obtain this as I see those very small tubes all over?
Are there any larger sizes available? It seems those tiny tubes wouldn't last long.

Well put. As much as I like clear caulk and had little problem with the roadbed, this isn't the case for the track.

BTW, I'm not talking about a single track oval here. Most of my dog-bone, figure eight is triple track with interlockings between four and six turnouts together.

 

Not to forget about the other problem, Peco rail joiners. Aside form filing the ends of the cut rails, the real problem is the lack of a extended 'lip' as I stated with Peco, unlike what I remember about Atlas. It's nearly impossible to even see that 'tab' that extends out from the portion of the joiner that actually holds the rail. You either slide the rail over the joiner all together or wind up having the joiner pressed against the center of the rail web (the thin vertical portion of a rial, I beleive that is what it is called).
With the longer 'lip' that Atlas has/had, I didn't have this problem. It's most frustrating. :beat-up:

 

Along with HuskerN, I too use Peco code 55 and CA, pretty much as he describes it. I use plastic push-pins to hold down the track and place the CA once every 6 to 8 ties. When I need to make an adjustment, just place a small screwdriver or other flat bladed tool against the end of the tie that has been CA'd and give it a tap. Since CA has poor adhesion in shear, the glue joint will pop loose w/o damaging the track. No need to pry on the track. Once you put down your ballast, it isn't going anywhere!

NCDaveD

 

Are you placing the CA between the rails or outside?

"poor adhesion in sheer"?? Explain. Then where/when does it have good adhesion?

As in the Atlas type 'spikes'?

 

Yes Atlas spikes.

 

I agree with Husker when it comes to using a CYA procedure...grin! Of CA, a Gap Filling Cyanoacrylate, to glue the ties down to the road bed.

I don't agree with using nippers to cut the track. Preferring instead to use a fine cutting disc and a Dremel Tool. No flash, no rough edges and everything goes together nicely.

I don't remove any of the ties choosing instead to remove the spike heads with a razor saw.

When working with flex track I choose to offset the joints by two to three inches. Exception being when installing a piece of sectional track Ie: Rerailer or a switch.

You won't believe how smoothly my trains run around my layout. Heck, I'm still in disbelief.

The only thing... working against me, is the cold weather and having the train layout in a metal shed. Not something I would recommend. For now the only place I have to work on it and then operate it.

Have fun!