I started a similar tread last April and got sidetracked on a spiral helix so it still is in the design stage. It got very complicated due to all the additions I made after seeing all the spiral possibilities. I’m sticking to just a straight up helix on this one because it will be underneath the other one and I want it easy. This helix design is for a staging area under my Yard & Service Area and will have a sliding indexed staging track. As shown below Anyway, I drew up a drawing using ¼” plywood with all the supports on the outside to keep the clearance to a minimum. It also will have parallel tracks so I can run trains up and down at the same time. I do not have a lot of room and it will be in a closet so the outside track radius is limited to 16”. This is what I have so far but I’m just blown away by the amount of turns and length of track. I want to be sure this is doable before I start. I have two track plans, one in XtrkCad and RTS 8, but the RTS has 3D so this is it. Some of you have already seen these photos, but I want a little more exposure to be sure I'm making the right decision.
My first thought and response is...Looks Great! After looking it over I have only one thought. Make sure your hidden staging yard is a run through. Backing up trains into dead end spurs can turn into a twisting, jack knifing, hard to get to nightmare. Ask me. By the way I enjoyed your Christmas Tree Layout. Looked good.
Thanks Rick, I was worried about backing in so I added the two tracks all the way around. It also allows for me to split a train on to the second parallel track. I have a small siding in front for a switcher next to the entrance of the helix. It doesn’t show it in the RTS drawing because I didn’t have one in the library, but I plan on using a Kato double crossover at the bottom of the helix to split the trains if I have to. This from XtrkCad Oh I decided not to use all those rerailers, but didn’t get around to removing them the drawing. I’m glad you liked the Christmas video. I wonder which one it was. I had to delete one because there was a sound track issue with YouTube, but I put two more up. A short one and a long one.
The video I caught showed the three tiered train table with all three tracks winding throught the Christmas Village. Your sliding table is a great idea, nice and compact. Giving you the run through. Can't go wrong with that. The only negative I see is N scale can be knocked off the track with just a nudge. No need to do a mock 6.0 earthquake. Grin! I think Tom S. is planning a staging yard similar to yours. Cold up here and I suspect non-to warm on the desert. You take care.
I think I got the sliding staging worked out, because I’m using a 12V window motor to move the drawer and I’m also going to glue in partitions between each track just in case one derails it’s not going to take the whole drawer out. I’m more worried about the helix, right now I have 5 turns with a clearance of 2.3” (.25” is taken up by plywood) and a 2.5% grade. I was experimenting with the helix design and if I go with 4 loops I’ll have a 2.8” vertical clearance with a 2.8% grade. Plus I save 21ft of track. I guess the real question is how much of a difference is it going to make between a 2.5% and a 2.8% grade? I know a lot of people have mentioned 2% as a max, but I just can't do that because of space restrictions.
If there is anyway to incorporate your staging yard on one level of an oval helix you could reduce the grade and number of layers significantly. It would be ticky since the yard might have a grade itself. Jack S
Not really, because the room is so small and I want a very small work bench with tools and stuff in the closet. This drawing is from before I started the under table staging but it does show the room layout. Also the upper level which I have not started yet has changed with a helix above the staging helix. I’m not sure if I can pull it off with the oval helix above the round helix because of the way the track will enter the lower and the upper helix, but if I can then I was planning on having the upper helix cantilever over the work bench a little. The drawing below is what I had planned for over the workbench, only I will not know if it’s going to be possible until I get the bottom finished. Actually I’ve been having second thoughts about the upper level all together, although I did buy everything except the turntable which hasn’t come out yet.
It depends on how long your trains will be and how many locos you will have towing your cars up through the helix. I had 2 of them with 20" radius and a slightly above 3% grade. For 30 car trains I needed 4 locos (3 of them 6 axle) to get them up and stalls and derailments were a constant nightmare (Depends in part on the skills of the engineer). The next helix will be above 20" radius and under 2% grade. So my advice is keep the grade as small as possible. True, it will cost you more in tracks but a trouble-free operation has no match... have fun Michael
Pardon me being the guy raining on the parade, but I cannot help but ask: will 1/4" ply be strong/stable enough for the helix? You want to minimize bulk, and I can respect that, but I think that the roadbed would flex too much. Over time it may droop, sag, warp, twist, etc, and knock your helix all outta whack. I built a sweet spiral bowl helix designed by ppuinn, and it was a fantastic success. It rose about 11", made 5 loops or so, 2% max grade, IIRC; started at 15.5" rad and enlarged to 21" rad at the top. The whole enchilada was built from 3/4" ply, and I had 2 places where a wye was built in to provide a continuous run loop. The places the track crossed under required about 3/8" of ply to be removed to provide clearance for doublestacks. The rest of the structure was rock solid, and had 8-10 supports. The short 2" sections of thinner roadbed were not a worry, but the entire helix being built of 1/4" I fear that will encourage problems later on. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. I would go at least 1/2", 3/8" might work, but I'm too chicken to try that. Am I off base here? The bowl design allowed open air tracklaying/cleaning and maintenance. It is, IMHO superior to a stacked helix. In a stacked helix, not only does your roadbed need to be perfectly smooth, tracklaying needs to be flawless as well. There's not much clearance for the old 0-5-0 to clear a derailment with 2.3" of vertical clearance. I will also caution against steepening the grade to allow for less track to be used. Steeper grades can be an operating headache. Real railroads avoid grades for the same reason.
Thanks that is a good point, I never had a helix before and having longer trains is half the reason for this and the other is having a place to store more trains. Right now I’m limited to 12 cars max because of the size of my layout and I hope that I might be able to do 30 although that might be pushing it. I might just have to reevaluate the work bench and start thinking about the oval Actually I was going to use 1/8” but I already have a piece ¼”, I’m going to use strips glued around the outsides of the track to give it more strength and rigidity so I don’t think that will be a problem. I never built a helix, but I’ve used this technique in other projects and its amazing how strong it is. The big drawback is that it limit the accessibility to the tracks, but I all read have that problem with it being in the closet. I’m going to have to rely on sticks and other means of cleaning and retrieving derailed cars. I just recently bought a “grabber” or whatever you call it from Harbor Freight to pick cars that I can’t reach. Anyway you all have made me think a little more about this, I guess I need to re figure this
UhOh .. don't rely on anything to get something out from the helix. Ask me why I know this: You will damage or destroy cars by retrieving them and cleaning will be tedious. My next helix will be one I can get into easily and be able to retrieve cars without the help of a tool. And it's a motiviation to keep my weight down.... have fun Michael
Well from the responses I think this plan is a ‘bust’ and I need to go back to the drawing board. I might be able to making a small pullout work bench on wheels that will fit under my other layout and doing a large oval to fit the entire closet. I have to say that I’m getting a little overwhelmed by all the track in such a small room and I may end up a little claustrophobic in the train room. I really have to think again about this staging idea. This is starting to look more like a “Jungle Jim” than a model train room, except that I can’t climb on it. So anyway this project is on hold until I figure something out
Johnny, Don't give up yet. You have tooooooo much potential here to toss in the hat. I would be the first to agree with Hemi and to insist that you consider his words. A 2.0% grade is ideal and should be the standard you set for yourself. On the other hand and I don't mean to speak out of both sides of my mouth. You've seen my four track helix. With regard to the two inside tracks. The grade raises up at a consistent 2.0% grade. The exception being a few short grades of 2.5% to 3.0% grade. The helix is stacked one over the other with a clearance of less then 2.0" at 1.75" (from top of track to the bottom of supports that hold the sub-roadbed in place). I can run my double stacks, wrecker crane, hi-level passenger cars through it, without them hanging up anywhere. What are your construction plans for building the helix? The reason I ask is Stubby, (a fellow model railroader) just built one using a unique plan and might be worth your looking at. All N scale and makes my layout look pretty sad. As does yours...grin!
I’ve been designing an Oval helix to fit the whole closet but I’m just not sure I want so much track in the room. The new design is 3’x7’, 13” high and has 3.15” Clearance (less the 1/4” plywood and track). It also works out to be a 1.7% Grade, but that’s only because I have to use crossovers on the double track on the first level because of the 90 deg angle into the staging area. I don’t know what stubby has, but I’m pretty much set on the ¼” plywood with sides around the outside to keep it ridged and also protection for the cars if they derail. Do you have a link to Stubby?
No, although Stubby is a member here he doesn't play much with his computer. I will have to go and take pictures, get his permission to share them here or get you to make a trip to Big Bear Country and check it out. I will talk to him tomorrow and see if we can't come up with a verbal description of what he's done. Remember, you can never have to much track. Not when it comes to running multiple sets of trains. Grin!
I not sure yet what I’m going to do, but I’m going to look into a motorized train lift (elevator) staging system first before I do anymore on this since I’m now using the whole closet. I found some HO ones and still looking for N scale. So Rick, is there still snow up in Big Bear? I have next Tuesday off, but I have to check with the wife first because I know she has a doctor’s appointment some time next week and I have to take her or maybe the following Monday. I'll send you an email.
Yes, we have snow on the ground all over Big Bear. I have approximately six inches in my driveway. With the extreme cold weather we've been having it's not likely to melt off soon. Let me know if you can come visit. More on the details of Stubby's helix...tomorrow. So, are we talking dumb waiter? As in lift or elevator.
Johnny, Don't throw in the towel yet--I do like that oval helix you proposed--I would suggest a slightly different variation of it. Rather than built it stacked, or stacked and angled as it seems your plan is, built it offset but stacked. That will keep the footprint smaller, yet allow much more vertical clearance than a traditional stacked or angled helix. Here's a low-tech illustration:
Well I was thinking something like this except that I would have to have curved tracks on one end to come out of the closet. [video=youtube;skSCtLUaf-o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skSCtLUaf-o[/video] But when I woke up this morning I thought maybe instead of the staging moving up and down, I would just have a single track elevator that raise the trains from the under table staging. If you remember, I plan on having a shelf layout above my main layout for my steamers and I need a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] helix for that. With the lift I can move trains between 3 levels. I could be on the back wall of the closet and allow room on front for a work bench or whatever. That will also save me around 240 ft of track Umm that’s interesting. Thanks, I’ll have to play around with that a little. it would be nice to see the trains and maybe even do a little scenery. biggrin:
