Hey guys, I need your help. After over 2 years since I started building my train table, I finally have managed to make some progress on it! Finally got the foam put on the top, and am ready to lay track. My only issue is, I don't know what I want for a track plan. My (long ago) plan was for a dog bone shaped plan, and since my table is designed for that shape of layout, I'm still thinking something along those lines. My layout is planned for modern era equipment (1990s+), coal trains, intermodel, ect. I want to be able to run at least 1 train in a loop to loop fashion (but am open to being able run 2 trains). I have young kids so they will LOVE watching the trains just go. I don't want anything super complex spaghetti bowl style, just fairly simple, but with enough variety to provide a decent amount of operational fun after the kids go to bed and daddy gets to play.... Oh and the track is atlas code 55 if that makes a difference. My last train was in the early 90's when I was a teenager, so it's been a while, but I've been wanting to get back to running trains for years and now that I'm ready to go I'm stuck on the trickiest part. Grades, bridges, anything to that will at interest and challenge is fully acceptable and encouraged. Please help me!!
Hi psbarger, welcome to TrainBoard. Please take a moment to post an introduction of yourself in the member introductions area. You have a pretty good list of wants so far and I think you can start plotting things down and checking them off. The only thing that might be of concern is the relationship of modern equipment to small radius track. Would you be able to fill in the cut out section to allow you to use the full 3x8 area? That would allow you to increase minimum radius from about 11" up to 14-15", which will substantially improve performance of inter modal and 6axle locomotives.
Hi Mark, thanks for the welcome! Yeah I could fill in the notched area if that would increase my options. My only concern is if I make the table too deep I might have issues on reaching the back edge... pretty much the only location I have is up against the wall. I am open for any and all suggestions at this point though! Thank you.
Food for thought: Just adding that little triangle will help create the space to have the main swing out around the climbing coal branch. It seems as though you have access to the far left side, so the Viewblock Mt. separates the layout into two viewing positions: from the "pit" (center) and from the far left. I think it'd be groovy to have an interchange come in from that side: you could have removeable cassettes or a fold-down extension to act as staging (a place where carloads come from and go to). The center of the layout, which would represent a town far, far from the coal mine, could have a small yard, plus whatever industries like frieght, paper (it's near the mountains, yes?), beer, etc. There a little space bottom right for a water- or river- front at the base of the incline up to the tipple. Since you've aready built the benchwork, and the right side is up against the wall, the mountainside between the mainline loop will need to be made removeable for access to the tunnel. Removeable sections are easy to disguise & blend into the layout. I did not fill in all the yard & industry tracks or any of the industries (Feel free to contact me if you'd like me to do a full layout design ) but I wanted you to see what was possible with a little modification to your existing benchwork. I worked off the info you gave, so if there's other considerations, wants, needs, givens, druthers, etc., let us know so we can help out! Cheers! --M.C.
Excellent design M.C.! I was going to suggest something similar to beveling the indented pit, but you beat me to it! The only change I would make is to bevel it on both sides, and perhaps make it only 1/2 or .75 ft deep. Phil, the reach concern is definitely a valid concern. I'm of the type who would rather plan a little extra depth, knowing you can reach with assistance (stool/secure hand placement), when it means achieving more room for larger radius. I'm comfortable with up to 3.5 feet, and when the scene is planned exceptionally well, I'll go 4'. Others will prefer 2.5 foot max. It depends on how you plan to access the far reaches. On my fathers layout, there's a spot that I stand on a stool, and place one hand against the back wall in order to lean over the layout. On another spot, we have a dedicated area of the scenery, specifically reinforced to lean on. This can be a parking lot, the base of a removable structure, or even a part of the mainline (if your careful).
Thanks, Mark. Pythagoras sez Phil already has a 35" reach to the corner which, even given the low layout height, is a bit of an Elastagirl stretch (especially with structures & rolling stock on the layout). Even a little 3"x3" triangle on the right side would allow wider curves, but that same triangle would push the reach to almost 40". He's already got the benchwork done, so I just wanted Phil to see how minor addition on a side that has multi-sided access anyway would help improvements. I drew pretty quick: there's still plenty of room to play with track placement, grades, etc. But a lot of that depends on what kind of operations & other industries he'd like on the layout. Seems like there's space for a fold-down or removeable staging yard either on the far left side or coming off the bottom right, but maybe Phil wants a nice neat self-contained layout (which, given space or family considerations, is totally groovy). There's a bunch of other stuff that can be done with the space as well (especially if he backdates it to smaller locos), so I'm sure others will have some groovy ideas as well. I think it's kind of fun when the benchwork is already built: much akin to poets folding & weaving words into the 14 lines of a sonnet!
It seems kind of like my conditions for a layout... fun for dad, but fun for kids too. My son has the most fun with smaller rolling stock/locos (0-6-0 steam, gp's etc) and small tankers or 40' box cars. To allow some of this (not so much the steam) into our larger layout we're going to do 1960-present as a time frame
Wow, thank you for the overwhelming response!!! MC, that layout is awesome! That is very similar to what I have been sort of planning in my head while looking at my space. I love it! I am 100% willing to modify the bench work, so that is not a problem whatsoever. The saws are in the garage, and the wood is waiting. Let me also clarify a couple of other constraints that may help you guys, first off my train table is part of my "man cave" (or "cave man room" as my daughter calls it), which is an approximately 13 x 13' bedroom which is all mine to do whatever I please. Even though the table is built, some part of me kind of considers this layout as a starter layout, to re-learn my basic modeling skills. Depending of course on how it goes, and how the kids take to it, there is potential for it to expand or be replaced by a much more extensive layout. So MC, your layout branch running off on the right hand side is great, as there is definitely potential for expansion (whether just storage space, or a whole other branch). As for industries, honestly I'm not 100% sure at this point. A year back I impulse bought a Walther gas / propane industry kit, and that's the only structure I even own at this point (and it's still in the box). Coal, paper, really not super picky at this point. Anything that catches my eye really. I really like BNSF locomotives, and rolling stock. My only current locomotive is BNSF, and I (also also on an impulse) bought a set of Kato BNSF coal porters. The rest of my rolling stock is all Atlas stuff from a long long time ago, so I'm not really committed to anything much at this point. I'm not really interested in being super prototypical at this stage (or probably not too much so even in the future ). Grades are great, and I really like elevation changes. My layout as a kid was perfectly flat, which was easy to work on, but very boring. I am up for ups, downs, whatever. I know I can't get too crazy on this sized space, but whatever can be thrown in is fine by me! Also like a mentioned, this is sort of a re-learning / testing the water kind of layout. I want to make sure that actual living through the experiences again is as much fun as I remember, before I build a monster, around the walls, multi level dream layout. Also I'm already fairly committed to Atlas code 55 track. I have about 20 pieces of flex track and a few switches already bought and in hand. I would love to get the "feel" of Jim Reising's New Oakville sub, albeit in very much a mini-me version.
My prejudiced opinion- late 20th century railroading is too “plain” and too “supersized” for all its aspects to be represented well on a medium-small layout. I am considering 2x8 feet in N scale with 3 foot deep dogbone ends to be ”medium-small.” This size layout can work well for an operation consisting mainly of local switching of 1 or 2 cars at a time to short industry spurs by a short one-loco branchline train… with an occasional through train running around from staging and back again. I did this on my 3x7 “East Texas district of the Santa Fe” layout. But I was representing the 1950s. My 9 ¾” radius curves forced me to restrict myself to 40 and 50 foot cars, GEEPS, no more than about 8 cars. No passenger trains. This local/ branchline style of operation had largely disappeared by the late 20th century. You asked for modern equipment—coal trains, intermodal… Boxcars have become less common, but in my part of the country (Texas), I see solid grain hopper trains and quite a few tank cars. I think the size layout you have in mind would be mostly a “running” layout. To suggest trains are going from someplace to someplace, I would advise some sort of staging. On my East Texas layout, I staged a thru eastbound, a thru westbound and a local peddler. Always want more STAGING! I don’t think you have room for a real “working” mainline yard. And if you had a working yard, you would need staging for cars to come in from someplace else. A real yard is not one where trains are stored, and once in a while, one runs out around the line and comes back again. I can imagine staging in back, hopefully for three trains, and ONE other main feature in front- perhaps a one or two track intermodal facility, perhaps a major industry with a mainline passing siding alongside, perhaps a large terminal grain elevator. If you really like coal mining, include a good sized one. I don’t know if the 1990s still had small one or two car mines as I have seen on some transition era pikes. I would model through coal traffic without modeling the mine loading or power plant unloading UNLESS you are really big on coal ops. Now, here are some tricks for your specific layout footprint. The staging does not necessarily need to be completely hidden, especially the turnouts/ switches leading into it. You could model it so it goes around a corner or whatever so some is visible to suggest a yard, but the entire thing is not out in open where one can’t help seeing parked trains and seeing that it is a reasonable “working yard.” Your benchwork is accessible on the left end. You might have one or two switches for a back-of-layout staging on the END of the layout in the middle of a turnback curve. The switches are the most prone to trouble, so keep them in the open where possible. Here is an example of a disguise, on an N layout plan half the size of yours- 3x4 feet. The four tracks at the bottom of the plan SUGGEST a yard that goes around a corner where you can’t see all of it, can’t see that it’s “not all there.” But it is enough to give the idea of a yard. However, it takes up so little of the visual space of the layout that it is not the main feature. In actually, it consists of a pair of double ended tracks which can serve as a passing siding, or can hold two trains that take their turn around the mainline. Two additional tracks can serve to hold “parked” cars, OR they can hold a peddler local that comes out to switch the town, runs around its consist and goes back into the dead-end spur. On the top of the plan, the end of the double-ended sidings there can simulate a passing track. Voila! A little in-town switching, 2 or 3 train operation (but not at the same time), plus the appearance of a yard and a mainline passing siding on a 3x4 foot layout. Oh, and a river bridge. Now for your right-end-against- the-wall access problem. The little triangle suggested by Fujiwara is fine for the left end, where there is end access, no need to reach across the triangle. For the right end, there is a way to keep the turnback curve within the two-foot wide section. Let the end curve turn almost 270 degrees so it heads back almost straight toward the back of the layout, add one straight section if using sectional track to avoid an S curve, and then your reverse curve will locate near the back of the layout rather than along the front. The front tangent from right end to left end can run at a diagonal across the layout. Wish I could draw a picture but it took hours to do well in my old paint program and my old computer burned up a week ago and I don’t have a draw program for the new one. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the great replies and inspiration. I took some flex track, paper clips, fired up my MRC Prodigy express system (for the first time! Been sitting in a box for 2+ years) and ran my (only) locomotive for a few laps just to see how it'd feel. Learned a couple of quick things, definitely need the chamfers at each end of the "dog bones", otherwise it's just really tight. So I just added them (picture added). The other is I really like the basic shape of MC Fujiwara's layout, so I'm gonna go with basically that layout. I placed an order last night at a couple of hobby shops (no local shops have any code 55, or really anything trains, just Hobbytowns around here...). So I got more track, switches, and other track building goodies on the way. A functional running layout is very soon in my future!
All kinds of things-- ammunition, etc- can be used to weigh down foam for gluing. Just happened to have a 12,000 year old mastodon thighbone stored in the storage end of my workshop for use in a future history class. As long as it was just laying around, might as well put it to good use.
I'm glad you "bit the bullet" and put in the triangles to better the space. There's a lot you can do with this space. For example: Here, the center "town" actually gets treated as two (or as one served by two lines), with the yard, engine service and industries up front, and another runaround & industries served at the rear. But, if you wanted a large industry in the center (like a paper mill), you could swing it to have the yard come off the bottom. Or? One key deciding factor for you will be length of trains. Notice that most runarounds / sidings are between 25"-30" long. That means that your trains will be 25"-30" long. That's about six 50' cars plus engine. So you need to figure out what kind of trains you want to run, and then plan accordingly. Small engines can shuttle 5-6 coal cars up & down the grade. What other "jobs" do you need? A couple locals to service the industries. What kind of trains will be coming in & getting dropped off at the interchange? What purpose does the railroad have being in this town other than bringing black diamonds down the hill? And where are those coal cars going? All same place? I'm glad you're digging the space and experimenting with track placement: that's a much better guide than lines on paper. But it'd be good to start brainstorming (imagineering) about what kind of operations you want to "feel" on the layout.
I'd also suggest checking out pachyderm217's albums: his layout, in addition to some great modeling, has a very groovy feel to it, probably because (rumor has it ) he just made it up as he went along, one section at a time. Food for thought. Enjoy!
psbarger, Here's an idea that follows the basic premise of fujiwara's original idea. Dual mainline for running trains. Branch line to coal mine. A few switching opportunities. As you mentioned...you don't want a spagetti bowl of track. Smooth rails!
Wow, I'm gone for a couple of days and there's another explosion of great ideas!! Yeah figuring out how the trains will actually run and how I can actually have things happen (a purpose) is the part I'm having trouble figuring out. I'm honestly kind of torn at this point. I want something that will have enough operating potential to be fun, but I'm also trying to keep it relatively simple, since in the back of my mind I keep hearing voices whispering "this is just the beginning" (actually maybe whispering isn't the right wording, might be yelling! ) One aspect is, man turnouts are pricey! I ordered a bunch (no LHS is a bummer) of stuff, and it didn't take long to hit $150 on turnouts and track alone.... and that was just enough to implement the basis of the original plan MC Fujiwara put up here.... Right now my plan is to basically get the mainline operating, and all the mainline switches in, then expand further from that in the coming weeks/months. Another aspect is, I'm having trouble finding good structures (or good pictures) of structures to help me figure out what I will put on those branches. Walthers cornerstone used to have cool stuff, but it seems like most of the modern buildings are in HO scale. Any ideas for modern industries? I was thinking coal mine for sure, ethanol possible (although I have a walthers propane setup, but it's a pretty small set), paper mills seem pretty interesting.... I really like autoracks but I think an automotive plant and those huge auto racks on my small layout might be tough to implement. Container cars are cool as well, but I don't know if I want to do a real port.... As you can see I'm not super picky, just trying to find some stuff I don't have to spend 100 hours attempting to scratch build (at this point at least). Thanks for your help again all!
Huge auto racks? I can't help with that. But automotive plant?!?!?! Who says you need to model an automotive plant to run auto traffic? There are very few worthwhile rail movements that can be modeled in their entirity and a small layout. You could model just the delivery point where the auto racks are unloaded. Or model a point where autracks on a trunkline are interchanged to a belt switching railroad for delivery to offloading ramps. Or just more the THROUGH movement of autracks on trains that pass THROUGH your modeled scene. Of course, all these involve some kind of staging.
My thoughts. Wow, MC, Ziggy and Kenneth all have some great ideas.:thumbs_up: You don't have to have a port to run container well cars or even an intermodel yard. Though I do have a small yard on my layout. That is why we have staging. Staging represents the part of the world where cars come from or go to. If a layout has two staging areas then you can just run through trains that may or may not stop to pick up or drop off cars. The interchange can also help to do this. As my layout is a lot bigger I have all of these.:tb-rolleyes: Both of my staging is visible as many others are on other peoples layouts. Or it can be behind a partition or hills. Any way these are some of my thoughts on the subject.
