Last week I received MTL's new F7 A & B units and after giving the matter some thought, I decided to call together the members of my association so that we could all witness the first running of them on our layout. It wasn't until yesterday that we were all able to get together so we all waited with excitment as I put these units on the track for the test run. I switched on the power, and gradually turned the throttle, and nothing happened. Oh the motor was humming and the light was on and all, but all it did was sit there and spin. I gave it a nudge and it moved down the track about 4 feet where again it came to a halt and just sat there spinning away like it had a right to. Again it was nudged and again it proceeded on it's way for another foot or so before again going into the spin mode. Thinking that the track must need cleaning we set about scrubbing it down with alcohol wipes wrapped over a flat stick. I put the units back on the track and started off from the same point. Well here we go again. It sat and spun. Again we nudged it and again if moved just a few inches before just spinning. I was getting frustrated at this point. These were brand spanking new units and here we are having problems. So I removed the B unit, and started again. This time the A unit moved reasonably well around the layout past all the places it had stopped until it came to the first turnout. Just as it entered the turnout it again stopped and spun. Nudging it got it through but much to our dismay, at every turnout on our layout, 13 in total, the same thing happend. It just sat there and spun. It only took the slightest nudging to help it along, but still this should not be happening. We cleaned again all the turnouts and tried once more. Same thing. Why? This is nuts. A brand new unit getting hung up on each and every turnout? No way. And to make matters worse, it happened in both directions. Everything we tried had the same effect. So we decided to run the engine at very low speed to try to discover what the problem was. It didn't matter. It still got hung up on each turnout and it didn't matter if it was in forward or reverse, or in which direction it was coming from. We also discovered another problem. The A unit wobbles from side to side at low speed. As the speed was increased, the wobble decreased until at the high end of the recommended voltage for this little guy, the wobble was hardly noticeable. Now I was getting really mad. I put the A unit by itself on the long straight part of our layout, about 5 feet with no turnouts and tried it there and it ran fine in both directions until coming to a standard curve at either end of this section. Here again it got hung up and spun. Nudging it helped it along but this shouldn't be happening. So now came the pulling power test. I put on three of the lightest cars we have and tried it. No problem. But when I added 3 more, this unit wouldn't pull them. It just sat and spun and nudging it had no effect. So I took off one car. No change. I took of a second car and she moved reluctantly. So 4 light cars was all this unit would pull. I then put the B unit back on and took off all 4 cars. They moved reasonably well until the curves where they got hung up again. So back to square one. I added one car to the set and it pulled ok, but when I added the second car, the spinning took place. Again nudging it did nothing to help it along. I took off the second car and again she moved but not very well. After about two hours of testing and observing we came to the conclusion that these new F7's were just not what we had hoped for. After all the hoopla, and talk and excitment about the new releases, we were soundly disappointed. Dave was going to get a set for his layout, but after seeing the way mine performed he decided against it. He asked me if anyone else had had the same problems with these new units, to which I responded I hadn't heard anything. So the question is out there. Has anyone else who has purchased these newly released F7's had any performance problems with them? I have to say that once again I am diappointed in the performance of MTL engines. First my SD40's and now these? It begs the question does MTL not know how to make a quality product? I know these are made in China, where quality take a back seat to quantity, but really. It is pretty sad in my opinion. I can't believe that these problems are limited to our layout. All our other engines run perfectly on it, with the acception of the SD40's. Even my old F7's run reasonably well on our layout even with the B units and 5 cars. So what is with these new units? To say that these units performed far below my expectations would be a horrendous understatement. The only good thing about them is they are quieter then the older F7's. I'm wondering if some bullfrog snot would solve the spinning/slipping problem? It certainly won't help with the hang ups in turnouts or curves. I guess, like my SD40's, these will just have to sit on a siding somewhere looking pretty because they are of no other use like this. I just don't know. Before anyone asks, we didn't try these on any grades. What would be the point? If they won't move on flat surfaces, then they ain't going to be any better on any grade.
Hey... at least they are just an F7 after all... I have a pair of AC-12 that can't pull three cars, but they sure look pretty sitting in the roundhouse! :tb-wink:
After seeing your post I deceided to check my new Santa Fe F7 to see if it had the same problems. To my dismay it suffers from the same wobble and the jerky starts. I only have a 2' x 4' test oval and no turn-outs so I can't say how it would react to going through them. There has to be others that are experiencing the same difficulties with these new F units! Back in 2005 the Southern Pacific F units had a problem with out of round wheels that caused the wobble. After changing them out they ran very well! Hey Joe- chime in any time! :tb-biggrin: Wayne
The only thing that I can think of that would cause this sort of problem is not setting the trip pin height on the Micro Trains couplers and there is a tool for doing this and it is pretty routine thing to do with any MTL car or engine before running it, but it would not be picked up unless you open the papers inside the MTL box and read them. If it is not set then you can snag the frog on MTL roadbed switches and Marklin ones as well. It will even catch at rail junction on smaller radius curves.The other possible cause is obstructions which rise above the top of the rail whether is is ballast or road crossing plate or even a track nail that is not set properly, flush with the ballast or ties as the case may be. There is very little clearance under the trucks, so even a switch that was put down to tightly with track nails can be distorted and a raised frog will snag the trucks. The F7A has so much power or torque that for it to sit and spin means it has physically hit an obstruction in or on the track with the truck frame or something attached to it.I know the F7B will be a drag as it does not roll very freely and there are several articles around on how to improve the rolling ability of this unit but the F7A can drag a fleet of them around it has that much power. My new CNR units ran well right out to the box for me as did my SD40-2's. These CN units are not the first F7's I have thou they are the first of the revised units the rest of my engines are the original version and I have used them for powering trollies and other things in Nn3 with not problems at all other than they sometimes sound like a coffee grinder.. regarding F7A's that flop from side to side, this is caused by someone taking the engine apart and not taking care the brass wiper that goes from the body to the top of the gear tower has been installed incorrectly or damaged during reassembly and it is easily done if you are not familiar with servicing these units. There is also an up grade to the electrical pickup available from Glen Chenier'. do a search on f7 wheel wipers on google to find out more. Z is definitely not N or HO and there is steep learning curve and for this reason it is not suitable for everyone and not everyone will succeed using it. As to quality of MTL product. Yes like anyone there are the occasional disasters but so far I have not heard of anyone who contacted MTL not getting service. But the staff at MTL definitely have some interesting stories of product returned as defunct and claiming warranty. At train shows I can hand track sufficient to make an oval to kids 10 to 14 years of age with an engine and a few cars and most are able to put it together and get it running without instructions in about 45 minutes( the best time was from a 8 year old and he did it in under 4 minutes. So to me this tells me the product is okay and will run out of the box. The only thing I did was to ensure the uncoupler wires that hanging down from the coupler were set to the correct height.
OK guys- not trying to stir the pot! Was just wondering if anyone else had a problem with the wobble? I have over a dozen of the F7's and have put wheel wipers on all of them & they have performed great after doing so, but I have not opened this one up yet. I love MicroTrains products & will be contacting them about this issue tomorrow & I am sure they will correct the problem like they did the SP units back when. Regards...Wayne
Hmm, I too am sorry to hear of your bad running F-7's. I have the new MTL ATSF F-7A and F-7B and they have been tested on my layout without any "problems". OK, they still make a lot of noise and the F-7B still has a ton of drag (Its trucks will soon be getting a little filing job to aid the wheel drag situation.), but other than that, they run like "normal" and the F-7A pulls a ton. The ATSF F-7 AB pulled a string of 12 Pennzee reefers and a caboose through my layout without any wobbles or poor pulling power. My layout consists of 2.5% grades, 145mm curves and many Marklin switches and a crossover. No problems. I now have 10 MTL F-A's and 8 MTL F-7B's. They all have their own personalities and some do lean and wobble. But not my new ones. I hope that I'm not the exception here, but my new ATSF F-7's are good runners. Bill Mock
A good running F7 will pull over 40 cars without a hick up. Might make nasty off color sounds, but pull they do. Now here's one for you..... Being a dealer I see a lot of locos and rolling stock pass through my hands. Several weeks ago, I took a brand new ATSF F7A out of the box, put it on a test track and it made nasty jerky movements for about a foot and then stopped........Dead. NOthing happening. Couldn't get it to even make any noise...DOA. You might say it was jinxed. Took it to MTL, walked in and announced, "this puppy is not sick.......it is dead.....now who's going to perform mouth to mouth on this one?" I left it with MTL and about a week later picked it up while picking up product and now she runs like she had been tuned, balanced, and timed by Jeff Gordon's personal pit crew. Didn't ask what was wrong, but fixed it they did. It could have been a tiny speck of plastic flashing on a gear or something else, but she runs now. MTL will make good on any defective product, but please, don't screw the item up, give it to your dog for his chew toy, use them for your kid's pacifier or door stop, and then expect MTL to smile when you dump the mess on their doorstep. They recognize blatant abuse when they see it, but if it doesn't work, MTL will stand behind their product. Now, even if it is running nicely as you would expect, but you want a hot rod instead of a VW bug, (no offense VW) then pay some extra bucks and send your F7 to Glen Chenier. He can work magic on those locos and have them running better than out of the box.......no kidding. That's my loco story and I'm stickin to it.
MTL and AZL both stand by their product. Turn it in and they will fix it. Trust me, they are great locomotives. Now...here is my chance to tell people. If you are not using DCC. Then get a gaugemaster. They work. They make all the loco's run well. Gaugemasters will take a poor runner and make them very well.
Sorry you are having problems with the F7. Frankly it's a dated mech and I knew that going into the decision to re run these. Due to problems in china, I pushed the idea of getting these back on the market so those who had asked for them, got a chance to have one. I can tell you that all of these units are test run on our track at the shop. I see this every day. Do we have problems...sure...but we are always eager to make it right. If you send us the unit, I will test it, let you know what I found and return on that works. As for hanging up, the trip pin is usually the problem. Try raising it up a bit and see if it clears the choke points on your layout. If it still doesn't work, please send it back to me. Take care Joe MTl
One idea that just strikes me. Our friend Newtoscale just ordered and received a pair of F7, OK. But he doesn't tell us which model/paintscheme he received... I'm meaning: these little guys are an old technology, everybody knows. And owing to this, these models need a full cleaning and relube if staying a few years in their boxes without beeing run. And myself, I guess if one of these days I order a brand new red Warbonnet ATSF, NYC or UP F7 (ie an older unit, having been released many years ago) it may suffer of the same problems. It will really be a brand new engine (in the sense it has never been taken off the box after manufacturing) but having spent many years in a dealer's store, maybe it will need servicing prior to its very first wheel revolution. Just my two cents, Dom
OK where do I start. Let's start with Garth. I appreciate your loyalty to MTL, et el, and I'm gratifide that you new F7's work as expected to. I too got a pair of CN's and as far as the spinning is concerned, this engine was placed on a straight section of track taking care that all wheels were on the rails, and yes checking the height of the trip pin was the first thing we did when it wouldn't move. As for taking it apart and doing any work on it, let me state for the record that these units came to me in the original boxes. I made no adjustments to either A or B unit. Neither was taken apart for any reason. There shouldn't have been a need to coming straight from the dealer. This A unit gets hung up at turnouts, before it even gets to the frog. As soon as it enters the turnout from either direction it stops and spins. And all the customary checks of track and such were performed. The same thing for the curves. We only used track nails when laying out our track plan and testing. Once that's done and we committ to final construction, all tracks are glued in place so there are no nails or pins or anything other then glue holding it down. So no worries there. As for obstructions, possibly, but in response to that, how is it that all the other engines we have run smoothly over the same sections of track even my older F7's? If this unit was taken apart, it was done before I got it. Which therefore begs the questions why? Joe, I can appreciate what you are saying. In your position I would stand behind the product as well. If this unit was tested before being shipped to the dealer I got this from, then why weren't these problems detected then and corrected? Perhaps this unit was missed. When I had so much trouble with my CP F7, with this same wobble problem by the way, you send me another chassis which worked very well. But I have to tell you, I have two of those old F7's and neither will pull more then 6 cars by themselve. Together they will pull about 10 but that's it. Just as a sidebar, I gave that old chassis to a professor friend of mine who instructs at the local techinical institute. Using a very high powered instrument something akin to an electron microscope, he found that the wheels of that unit were just slightly off center on the axle. So very little in fact that it was undectable by the naked eye, yet just enough to cause the wobble. This problem should have been detected at the manufacturer if there were stringent quality control protocals. China has no such protocals. So you have to take what you get. Last year Joe I had an issue with MTL turnouts. The thing you told me when addressing this issue was and I quote, "Sometimes we have to sacrifice quality for realism." Unquote. I have to tell you friend that in manufacturing world from whence I have retired, that statement would have landed you on the unemployment line. Quality should never be sacrificed for anything. If you knew going into this second production run that there might be problems with these units having to use the same molds, gearing et el, then someone at MTL should have been banging their fists on the boardroom table in China TELLING them that improvements had to be made and that was not negotiable. If the company I used to work for, farmed it's manufacturing out to China, that would have been top of the list of any Chinese firm getting our work. Indeed, it would have been the pivot point of any negotiated contract. Loren: I got these units from you and I don't hold you responsible for the problems. You are only the middle man here. One thing though, It's great that you live close enough to MTL that you can walk in the front door and say fix it. Unfortunately living in another country about 1500 miles away from MTL has it's disadvantages, especially when postal systems in either country can't be trusted to walk a letter across the street much less get a package to it's destination over any great distance. They are just not dependable. If I lived there I most certainly would be doing the same thing as you. As for wheel wipers, I can't see how they would effect the performance of these engines when it comes to the wobble. Look, I know that many of you think I'm being a bit picky or condemning about these units and their problems, and I know about the learning curve in Z scale. I'm learning every day that Z products don't work the same and N or HO and that there are many issues with something this small. But in my world, there shouldn't be any issues at all if the manufacturing processes are checked, double checked and yes, ever triple checked and quality becomes job one. Sorry to quote a phrase from an auto company. I never had such problems with either my HO or N scale engines except for broken traction tires. You know, I have to say this based on my experiences in the manufacturing world. Whether it be furniture, clothing, children's toys, electronics or Z-scale engines, anything coming out of China is of poor quality. That's the way it is over there. Quality is scrificed for quantity and price. When lead paint is used in the production of children's toys knowing that it will cause harm and possibly even death to children worldwide and not even bat an eye or show any concern, then that says there is a serious problem there. Regretably, too much of what we buy now days comes from there. This should never be the case. But when more and more companies shift their production to China because it's cheaper to do so, and sacrifice quality in the process, then that company's image suffers and the Chinese laugh all the way to the bank. Whatever the Chinese word is for "Sucker" I'm sure they are saying it every time another company moves it's production there. An editorial? No! Just quoting what my superiors used to tell us.
You do know that the F7s are made in the USA, right? Sorry to learn of so many issues. While I agree this should not happen, sending it off to MTL is a virtual guarantee of receiving it back in 100% working order. Bear in mind, too, that these are very delicate products more susceptible to damage than their larger-scale counterparts. Your unit could have been damaged anywhere along the line between factory, distributor, dealer and yourself. Not making excuses, just observations based on experience.
Ken, David's question above is a very valid one. If the wheels are out of gauge, (and it does happen), then the unit will indeed not work right. They will work on straight a ways, but the turnouts would cause them to hick up. I'd put my money on incorrect wheel gauge. One other thing. Your story of your old F7s only pulling 10 cars is so out of the norm. Something is drastically wrong with your old units. Any properly running F7 will pull the snot out of a string of about 50 or so cars....guaranteed. I've seen the prototype GP35 pull over 40 cars years ago and I know the F7 is every bit as good as the Geep and better in pulling power. Years before the Geep came out, the stories were centered around how long the strings of cars were that the F7 could pull. Something is wrong with your original units. And those poor maligned Chinese have nothing to do with the F7. The F7 is totally home grown, 100% pure USDA grade A beef. Yup, your F7s have something very wrong with them, but the correctly tuned and gauged versions are work horses. Everyone who owns them will attest to that. Time to get those work horses back in MTL's barn and have them reshod. MTL will feed, groom, and comb the tangles out of them and return them in tip top condition. I know the last thing Joe wants is to have you unhappy with any product from MTL. And besides, when Joe is unhappy, then I get unhappy because he then makes me pay for the pie.........(old inside joke)
The wheels may be gauged at the factory but in Z, it can take only a few thousandths of an inch in Z to run into problems. Many of us see it, especially with mixed manufacturers products. There have been some gauging issues with the turnouts and you may have received an F7 with just slightly under tolerance wheels (still in 'spec' but the narrow limit). Stalling in each turnout starts to lead me to this point. If you don't already have an MTL 988-00-032 Track/Coupler height gauge: or the Z 'standard (Nn3 is same gauge): https://www.republiclocomotiveworks.com/show_item.php?ID=570 Another possibility, and several of us have had this over time, is the 4 screws on the bottom of the truck frame. Make sure they are relatively flush or better. There have been a few that are not either fully seated or, have a slight burr. They are extremely close to the rail head. The F7s, new (latest releases) or old (the ones they have been selling for years before) all have had the distictive 'wobble'. Of course, some more than others but many with very minimal. We just did the National Train Show with 40+ modules and we ran into many problems at certain locations with some loco or rolling stock but then again, we ran many 30+ car trains around a hundred + times before an issue. Sure, we had uncouplings, picked points, stalls, etc. too but, we expect that - it's Z. While MTL (and all the others) strive to make the best, tolerances and lower volume production (= high tooling costs) mean that even with the slightest error or mistake, it is difficult to cost effectively get every one exact. As much as you have had your share of issues, it would be appreciated if you would just deal with your dealer or manufacturer directly. It is not just Z that has issues. My new Dell, my Honda, the USB adapter, etc. All new, out of the box, factory floor, etc. If everyone ripped on their daily lives issues, it would be like the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 11 o'clock news. Everything wrong in the world. Think positive, it changes the world. Send it back and it will be well.
Loren, I have to admit, quite honestly that none of us thought to check the wheel gauge on these. I suppose it comes down to expecting that they would have been inspected, and checked for proper gauge before leaving the factory. That should be the norm if you have high standards for quality control. No I didn't know that these were made in the States. I was under the impression that all of MTL's engines were made in China. But that doesn't excuse the fact that if MTL's quality standards were such that they exceeded our expectations, then these units would never have left the shop until thoroughly checked, double checked and triple checked. I was testing them again last night and the problems persist, however again none of us took into account that since these are brand new, right out of the box, whether old technology or not, that they will need some breaking in. So again I freely admit that our test results may have been a bit premature. Further, Dave is taking these units home with him this Saturday to test on his layout to determine if the problems we experienced on our Associsation's layout are common to all or just unique to our's Perhaps these problems will work themselves out. I truly hope so. I was waiting a long time for these. As to my old F7's, by themselves the have great pulling power, that's a fact, but the max either of these A units will pull is 4 cars with one and 6 with the other. That's without the B units behind. Now put the two A units together and their combined pulling power is only 10 light cars. I have had them pull 11 on a flat straight service, but any more then that is a pipe dream. It just ain't happening. I have resigned myself to the fact that neither of them will pull more then they do now, and there is nothing I can do to change that. So when I do run them, I often do so without the B units and just use 4 or 6 cars are the case may be. Or when put together just 10 cars. Maybe 11 if I feel advernturous. What we did do at the Supertrain 2011 show was run one F7 with the GP35's. Sort of like an oldie on it's way to the scrap yard or repair. Something like what you would see in real life. I don't know Loren. Maybe I expect too much from Z scale engines. I guess I judge them by the performance of the N and HO engines I used to have years ago. But even still, this technolgy should have been perfected by now wouldn't it? After all, how long has Z been around? Someone somewhere should have gotten it right. As for the Chinese, let me say this; I have nothing against them as a people. I have Chinese neighbors and they are nice people. I had a Chinese girlfriend a very long time ago, back in the stoneage. I wonder whatever happened to her. I also have a Chinese cousin-in-law back in Ontario, so they are OK. But as a manufacturing super power, they suck big time. I stand behind what I said before. They don't care one bit about quality control on anything they produce. i know I am not the only one who feels that way. It is a fact. China is trying to make a name for itself as a manufacturing superpower outdoing the US, Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and yes, even Japan and they will sacrifice quality and ethics to get there. When you compare their methods with those of the other countries, getting there the wrong way is worse then not getting there at all. In my opinion, such as it is, they are making a name for themselves alright. It's just not the one they were striving for.
Dom, These one's I'm refering to are the most recent or new releases of these F7's. Mine are in the CN paint scheme, if that really matters. Being old technology only serves to emphasize my point about quality control. If MTL takes and old unit such as these and re-releases it with new paint schemes, doesn't if follow that knowing about any previous problems MTL should correct, modify, adjust, or otherwise rework the new releases to make them better? If I were running MTL and the decision was made to re-release these, then I would say to my production and engineering staff, "Ok folks, let's do it, but we know there were issues with these units, and our customers were not completely happy with them. So let's make whatever modifications we need to make, to improve the performance and quality of this new batch. Let's improve the old technolgy. Let's make it better then the original release." I gotta believe that if that attitude had been taken, the problems I and others are having with these would in all likelyhood, not be happening. Take the B units as an example. OK we all know that the original B units were a drag. Not trying to be funny here. Just quoting what someone else said about them. So, would it not be prudent to make whatever changes need to be made to make them either less of a drag, or not a drag at all? Things like lightening them up a bit, using different wheels or trucks, and so on. Anything to improve their performance. Old technology can be improved upon. It may still be old technology, but at least it works better then it originally did. At least that's how I would have approached it. Does that make sense?
To understand and handle all the potential problems and tricks in Z-scale takes long, long time. With a very few exceptions, all the trouble with locomotives and rolling stock are related to lack of knowledge. Even more experienced Z-scalers make basic and hard to fix mistakes by rushing thru the most important and sensetive phase of layout / module building, track laying. Before ballasting and any scenery work, the track should be vigorously tested and even the smallest problem need to be resolved. I'm not going into how to do it details, but before blaming basic operator errors on reputable manufacturers, take a deep breath, and check your own work inch by inch. Install a set of perfectly gauged metal wheels into a freight car truck and push it forward / backward with left and right side moves and twists thru your layout in small increments. Hold it down with one finger. You'll be shocked what you feel. Now, imagine, every locomotive and car feels the same. If you don't feel anything, your finger need to be replaced. :0)
I believe you are holding unreasonably high expectations. This is a hobby industry, not the aerospace industry. These are hobby items (a.k.a. "toys"), not mission-critical life-support systems for space travel. The level of perfection you seek is indeed possible, but at a significantly higher price. In order to be affordable, the QC for model trains is going to be lower. People complain about the prices enough as it is! It's also unfair to compare Z to other scales. The laws of physics dictate that Z Scale will have more technical problems. Smaller mechanisms are more difficult (and more costly) to manufacture, and making one that's "perfect" is a tall, tall order. In order to remain affordable, Z Scale models cannot be cutting-edge technological wonders; they need to be practical. The laws of physics also means that keeping these trains running smoothly will be much more of a challenge than it is in other scales; trackwork must be impeccable and kept extra-clean, among other things. I've seen it happen time and again: a newbie comes into Z Scale all wide-eyed and excited. They open up a few boxes, and when things don't run perfectly the first time around, they start the blame game. If a product is well and truly defective, it needs to be returned to the manufacturer. If this fails to correct the problem, then your complaints may be justified. But you need to exhaust a lot of options first before you'll convince the rest of the Z Scalers here that you've got a legitimate complaint. At the end of the day, if you have truly pursued all options, including returning defective merchandise and checking all of those things that others here have recommended, and you are still unsatisfied, then you may need to resign yourself to the fact that Z Scale is not for you. That doesn't mean the manufacturers (regardless of their country of origin) are somehow selling us short, as you seem to suggest; look at all of these other happy Z Scalers here online. Somebody must be doing something right.
