Originally Posted by LOU D I gotta say,I'm with you guys.I can't immagine paying close to $200 bucks for a gas electric[175 plus tax] no matter who makes it,let alone Bachmann,unless maybe it was brass.With all the technology to make products these days,CNC,matrix printing,laser engraving,ETC,all these technologies that make it so easy to produce stuff these days,seems to me the only reason why model train manufacturers get so much for this stuff is because they drive up the prices artificially by limiting production.I'm glad I have almost every loco I've ever wanted to model.If I was just getting interested in trains,I'm not sure my interest would last long at these prices.That 2-10-2 costs as much as I paid for my Big Boy 10 years ago... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Westphalen: You can't really compare the Rivarossi Big Boy, good as they were, that was made 30+ years ago with a state of the art loco today. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a both a Con Cor Big Boy and a Challenger,last run,made in the last ten years.one HECK of a lot nicer than and better built than anything Bachmann ever made,not even in the same league.I had a Rivarossi,it's junk compared to the Con Cor.I mean,really,you can buy an Athearn Challenger for less than $350.00 if you look,The Bachmann 2-10-2 certainly isn't worth 2/3 the price of that.A street price of $225.00,that's an average of $50-$75 bucks more than a Kato GS4,for a Bachmann.[think about it....]
18cents to make, three bucks to ship, another three for between vendors, I'd bet there's a orofit of 6-8bucks a car.
That's ok if you want a Big Boy or a Challenger or a GS4 but if you want well detailed, nice running, everyday steam locos Bachmann is the only game in town. I could get a cheaper steam fleet if I went with Athearn or Kato but who wants a steam fleet made up of Challengers and GS4's. Maybe its about time Athearn, Kato, Walthers, Atlas and the others took a look at what Bachmann's doing and got off their backsides. What's N scale coming to, here we are defending Bachmann against Con-Cor, two manufacturers who once could only descend lower if they changed their names to Model Power. Amazing times indeed.
Lou, I really can't fathom comparing the Con-Cor/Rivarossi Big Boy to modern steam offerings. I have 4 Con-cor / Rivarossi Big Boy's of all vintages (From an original Rivarossi in the plastic jewel case to a recent Con Cor in a cardboard box with the new motor. The only thing Con-Cor improved on these things was the motor. Everything else is interchangable from the first version to the last. With the new motor there was also a gear ratio change by changing the worm and compound gear in the gear towers but even those can be retrofit into the older ones. No matter what combo of parts is in them, they are all grinders. They are noisy, have horible start up lurch, and won't run smooth at slow speeds. I have never heard a quiet/smooth Big Boy. They pull because they are large, yet the Athearn blows them away with pulling power and smoothness. The only reason I have the Big Boys is to canabalize them to make an EM-1 because the Athearn frame is too expensive and doesn't lend itself to the bash as easy. I may not ever finish it if Bachmann follows suit next year. If Bachmann would release the EM-1, a Pacific, and a Mikado, in N scale all my Con-cor's would find the trash. There is no substitute for modern delrin fine pitch gears, photo etch side rods and a split frame design with axles riding on bearings. The only reason the Big Boy's run as well as they do, is sheer size.
Tony,I wasn't comparing the actual locomotives,just relative price.When you look at something like the Kato GS4 compared to the Bachmann,and consider Bachmann will probably make/sell a lot more of them because they have a greater appeal,why is this new loco so much more expensive than even Bachmann's last locos?? Is it gonna be THAT much better??? I doubt it.. Also,my original Big Boy was junk,it had stamped steel rods like an Atlas Pacific or Mike,no detail,and it wobbled down the track like a drunk..My Con Cor has full scale looking valve gear,piping,ETC,better looking more scale blackened wheels with smaller flanges,and runs like a watch,no comparison to the Rivarossi..
Things are getting more expensive in China. I suspect a new Big Boy would be considerably more expensive than the last run. Not saying I like the prices, but they are in line with the new reality. I wonder if Bachmann used a new mechanism in the doodlebug. Things could be made probably for the same price or cheaper here. Assembly is the problem. American workers want a lot more than Chinese girls. And the Chinese are getting paid more.
To tell you the truth, I don't know how Kato got the GS-4's in the door as cheap as they are. That is one of the most over complicated mechanisms I have had to deal with. The rest of the loco, I can understand how they kept the price down. There are a lot fewer freestanding details due to the skirting and the skyline casting hinding the small stuff. That is one way they cut costs. I honestly think the Kato GS-4 may sell in greater numbers than the 2-10-2 simply because they keep pumping them out. They are trying to pay off that tooling by bringing out the Freedom version and backdated 4449. Now if they would just bring out a backdated the war time black version, I might have a reason to buy another and help them pay for that tooling. Bachmann seems to have strayed from their original methods of crank them out forever, and ever. Try to find a C&O Heavy Mountain. They sold out and haven't come back, believe me, I want another. The other heavies are still in stock but Bachmann has no plans to crank up the factory to make more C&O's. I think they now figure a price on making X number of products. When those products are gone, they have made their money and they are on to the next project. It's still not build to order but they may have learned that flooding the market with a product, good or bad, eventually leads to it's devaluation. Keeping the runs a little tighter, makes the demand higher and people will start learning they can't wait till things hit the bargin shelf. Walthers is working on changing the Life Like tradition of that also.
I hope and believe the new Doodlebug will be an all new mech. My current Doodlebug is nothing special and not the best runner. There were some details listed on the announcement that are different than the design of the old bug so I think this is at least an all new frame.
Well, then the 2-10-2 is considerably cheaper than that Big Boy! With risen prices for raw materials, and with inflation, it ain't so bad anyway!
OK, but after all the complaning and comparing apples to oranges, who's gonna step up and buy one or more. I for one will put money to mouth and have already ordered one of each. Yea the're a bit expensive,but I am expecting a well running product for my money. I'll give Bachmann the chance, they have hit more home-runs than foul balls IMO.....Mike
All i can say is quit your damed whining! At some point, everyone needs to pull their heads out and realize that bachmann is whos FINALLY making steam that weve needed in N-scale. Not only that, but theyre good platforms to start building off of for my ATSF and UP steam projects. $225 will be just fine for what should be ANOTHER great running/not made in plastic model by bachmann. Seems to me that theyre the ONLY mfg listening to us at this point. If you dont like it, then dont buy it. I for one will have a good 4 or 5 at the least for my projects as this chassis is ALOT better looking and scaled than that overpriced, out of scale, runs like crap 2-10-2 that CC put out.
Bachmann is indeed the only manufacturer who is listening to those of us who want a variety of good running steam. It's nice to see some of the offerings from Kato - but if it doesn't go along with some passenger cars they are offering they won't make it. After all of these years - as great as the engine is - converting their 2-8-2 Heavy Mikado to DCC is a major undertaking and they seem to have no intention of changing it. I saw great promise with Athearn's Big Boy and Challenger, but I don't see any move toward providing anything else in the future. Con-Cor had some decent offerings as well, but it looks like there is nothing else coming in the future either. Walthers has moved away from providing much of anything in N scale, though they did have some nice models that looked great (Berkshire, 0-8-0, Y-3), but, with the exception of the last runs that had traction tires, they were almost useless if you actually wanted to pull any cars with them - a step in the right direction, but measured and found wanting. There are a lot of us who desire to have quality steam locomotives. Bachmann has made numerous strides in the HO market over the past years, and has helped lead the way in the industry. They are one of the first manufacturers to offer factory DCC equipped models to the mass market, and it is the wide variety of products suited to many modelers of different skills - beginner to "expert" - that will help keep the hobby healthy well into the future. I don't think there is any other manufacturer who does more to introduce new people to our hobby. Heck, they are almost singularly responsible for the growth in the interest in On30. I personally look forward to the day when EVERY steam offering that Bachmann has in HO is also available in N. What I would give for a Berkshire in N scale that is of the same quality as the one that Bachmann has in HO. Their 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain and 2-8-0 Consolidation changed the standard by which the scale modeler measures quality in the N scale world. I applaud them and eagerly look forward to all of their future releases. I am anxious for the day when my roundhouse is filled with Bachmann steamers. Personally, I find it amazing that so many people who bash Bachmann are the same people who defend the use of horribly out-of-scale Atlas code 80 track, and still swear by running Micro-Trains pizza cutter wheels on their fine scale rolling stock with etched-metal roofwalks. Indeed. It's these attitudes that will continue to keep N scale as the "other" scale. It's time to move forward, and I believe that Bachmann is the one manufacturer who can help the world of N scale get there quicker. Personally, I think they could change everything by offering a 2-8-2 Heavy Mikado (take that Kato!) with DCC from the factory. 'Nuff said.
Ah the conversation that has been unrolling in HO for months, years? now.. Enjoy guys, And my you be as surprised with the new N scale mechs as we have been eith the larger bretheren.
When they will release a New Haven RS3, I will be interested! I already have a Doodlebug, 2-8-0, Light Mountain, GP7 and 44t.
Just look at it this way and i heard this straight from the horses mouth from an IM employee that when they did a pole for the next n-scale steam, ATSF 3751 was NUMBER ONE by modelers and they decided to do a 2-8-2 that will be railroad specific per roadname they offer. Lets see, kato has a mike, MP has a mike, and now IM wants to do a mike? Sounds just like the atlas amd kato crap of producing the same model over and over again. I sure hope they dont base theyre decision of doing a 4-8-4 on the sales of yet another mikado............ This is why i find a good chassis and just build the sh()t i want.....
What's wrong with Mikados, they were the SD40-2 of the steam era, they should be always available in as many roadname specific versions as possible.
Why produce a mikado when you can make something different that no other mfg has and steal the market? Bachmann at least gets the idea!
Why not if it's a specific prototype for Santa Fe or SP or NYC or any number of other roads? All we've had so far is the USRA light and heavy mikes. You might as well say no one should make a UP FEF because Kato and Bachmann already make 4-8-4's.
I guess itd be better if we made other wheel arrangements before we start getting railroad specific is what im getting at.
