New, New in the Box or is it Used?

Is a item New, New in the Box or is it Used?

I have a friend that buy's auto parts and he is constantly on the search for "Finds," of old car parts "New In The Box" with a inflated price. I can see that happening in the auto industry where a parts warehouse finds older Buick parts and they are still new in the box.

Lately he has been purchasing trains and bumped into a fella at a Swap Meet who sold him a number of locomotives....claiming they were "New in the box". By the time a number of us could take a look we discovered they were anything but new and didn't run. Broken gears, motors that over time and due to exposure had corroded or rusted. Oxidation being a factor as well. Now he paid some pretty fancy prices for some of these items and clearly got taken. They are, was, were and is trash.

Most of us mountain types live by simpler rules. If it was driven off the lot, purchased in a LHS and taken home... "It Is Used". Approach red over yellow, or in other words Stop and Think about it. In most cases it will likely deserve a Red, meaning it's a "Leeverite" and walk away from it.

There is a principal here that you can apply when purchasing any item. Todays subject happens to be toy trains. You can use this basic principal and it will aide you when purchasing any item. Since most things are self discovery I will let you chew on the principal and see what you come up with.

If it's "New In The Box" I will want to see a receipt (which is no guarantee) to see how recently said item was purchased. Then I look at the condition of the item. If it looks beat up and there are scratches on the wheels....no deal. I also take into consideration when the product was made.

I understand that some of you want to re-coop as much as possible, when selling off those items in your collection. To do so without a financial loose. I understand that.

There are others that would like and have created a "Collector's" market with toy train products. There are qualifiers we've used in the past, to purchase alleged "Collector's Items". Those indicators or rules have been rewritten as of late now qualifying items that wouldn't have reached such status, and most likely... shouldn't be on the "Collectors List".

Just some thoughts on the subject. Curious as to where most of you are coming from and would like to do this without seeing the thread locked down. So, let's not let our emotions swing us out of control and we can have a good discussion. Agreed? Ahh...to disagreee?

I will do you one other favor. I will stay out of the discussion. So, feel free to put in your two cents for better or worse.

 

I'm getting a serious case of deja vu here

 

I agree with the buyer beware principle. Eventually, any clown trying to pass off things with broken parts, worn motors, corrosion, etc. as new-in-the-box will be well known amongst modelers as a seller to avoid.

As far as "collector's" designations, I figure that if the seller says it is so and the buyer agrees then fine. I won't buy anything solely for the reason that it is a "collector's item." If I were to also really want the particular paint scheme or mechanism or whatever and considered the price to be fair for a buyer not looking for "collector value" then I'd buy the item, but not at a premium.

There are a few different meanings of "New" in popular usage. One definition is that the item is being sold to its first owner by an official dealer with any new product warranty intact. I know that items I buy from some other guy will not have these protections and I proceed accordingly. With rolling stock, not much can really go wrong. With locomotives, I like to test-run first.

The other definition of "New" which seems to have a lot of currency around railroad circles, but with which I don't agree (so I don't buy), is that if the item hasn't been opened, or it has only been opened once for a test-run it is "New." Since any warranties would no longer be in effect I don't agree, but if the price is what I would be willing to pay for a used and in very good condition item knowing there is no warranty I will go ahead and buy. If an item is in really good, basically hardly or never-been-run shape and is a highly desirable piece to me I may move past my usual pricing guidelines for used items, but I am certainly not going to initiate arguing with the seller over terminology or haggling on pricing.

 

We have a gentleman that goes to swap meets all over up here in the Seattle area. In my opinion, the majority of what he has is absolute JUNK. I browse his tables just to say hi and see what he does have. One time he had a Atlas GP 9 that was released around 1990 (the one with the shortened wheel base) for $85! YIKES! I asked him why so much? His response was, well that is what a new Atlas loco goes for today. The engine was missing handrails and one of the end platforms was damaged (obviouslly it was dropped) and he still wanted that kind of $$$$. Funny thing is, he has been packing that loco with him for the last 4 years. He will NEVER sell it unless it is more reasonable priced.

Yes buyer beware!

I have been to lots of swap meets in my area and I know who the reputable ones are and who the ones are that you avoid them like the plague.

 

Does this really need re-visited? Wasn't the other thread closed?

 

Does un-used = used?

I believe people are incorrectly considering seller reputation when appraising the value of an un-used item. Why does it matter whether the item has sat on a hobby store shelf or a third-party's cupbord? If it is truly un-used, then it is un-used. It's location or seller has no affect on its value.

Generally, yes a hobby store has a better reputation for maintaining their inventory. But that does NOT mean a third party seller does not maintain their stock.

Also, yes, generally a manufacturer will honor warranties for hobby store inventory. But for a reputable manufacturer, those warranties are only there in case of a rare defect. So why should a third party seller reduce their profit, or take a loss when the odds are against any buyer needing that warranty service?


So now we get back to Buyer Beware.

If a third party seller has an un-used item at or near discount MSRP, and all indications say that the item truly is un-used, you can bet that that item is truly un-used and worth every penny.

If another third party seller has an item listed as un-used, at or near discount MSRP, but many indications say that the item is not un-used, but in fact shows signs of use, then simply don't buy.


In summery, does un-used = used? Absolutely not. If an item is un-used, it is un-used, and therefore NOT used.

Does the above appraisal work for a USED item? Absolutely not! A used item is used, and therefore not un-used.

Note that the above appraisal does not consider product availability, manufactured date, reputation, demand, material compound, cosmetics, ect. ect... it is solely based on the amount of use (or rather non-use) the item has.

If I trust the seller and want the item, I'll pay what I consider it's value to be. And generally for an unused item, I consider it's value to be very close to the discount MSRP found at many online retailers.

 

Unused or NIB?

I agree in principle with Barstow Rick. I do understand and I appreciate the seller's perspective that if an item is unopened then from a selling point of view it is new. That being said, most of us would not buy a heretofor unused automobile, watch, or TV that was built in 2002 and feel as though we got it new. If the seller can get what he wants of the sale and the buyer obtains what he wants out the sale then what does any of this matter? If it was built 2 or 3 years ago it isn't by definition "new". But if you can sell it as such - Go For It. Just my 2c. Thanks for listening.
Old Fat Robert

 

Well, folks, if you address the situation logically the ONLY situation in which a model railroad product can reliably be considered "new-in-the-box" when not purchased from a reputable hobby shop is if the item is still in its shrink-wrapped box. Barring that, as in situations when the item never came shrink-wrapped, just boxed, there is no way of being absolutely sure if it has been out of the box and used at some point, or not.

Concerning whether, or not, the seller is misleading the buyer, or concerning the collectability of a certain item, I would pose the following. There is no fault with the seller if the buyer hasn't bothered to take the time to educate himself regarding the vintage and value of the item he seeks. It's the old adage about, "a fool and his money" and there seem to be an awful lot more fellas in the hobby these days than I used to see that seem to fall into this category. Anyone who goes strictly by what a seller tells him pretty much gets what they deserve.

Anyone spending an excessive amount for some piece of equipment the seller claims is a "collectible" quickly looses my respect, too. While there may be pricey collectibles among Lionel, or Flyer, toy trains, no such situation actually exists within the HO scale model hobby and never has. There are no collectibles in HO, only those that are claimed to be by sellers. Certain people may fight over a particular item on venues like eBay because they perceive them to be of great interest specifically to them. However, that does not make the item a true collectible, except in their eyes. There certainly are scarce items in HO today, but that alone does not make them highly valuable. Many items from the early days of the scale hobby are very difficult to find currently, but at the same time they are crude in appearance, inaccurate relative to their prototype and usually exceedingly poor in operation. This makes then highly unsuited to operating on today's sophisticated layouts...and what other real purpose is there to them?

This makes me feel that hobbyists today have no real grounds for complaining when purchasing an item at a show, or on eBay, for an excessive amount, only to find out later that its real value is far less than they paid. The buyer usually has cheated himself, not been cheated by the seller.

NYW&B

 

my biggest frustration is that I was not part of the dialogue that got the last one closed.

In an attempt to regain my status as a trainboard crank I was about to post a link to a you tube video. Then I decided that that would really piss people off. So...

hmmmm... It's new because the seller told me it's new. I'll buy that! ha ha

C'mon guys whats wrong with saying, " I bought it and never ran it". Or, "I bought it and never USED it".

Of course, "I ran it a little bit" works too.

This is like the passive speech politicians use in order to distance themselves from things they have done.

"I made a mistake" becomes "mistakes were made"

So maybe we need a new term for bought and not used.

new in the box could be In the box new...

or, box new in not used.

uhhhhh... help me out here guys!

 

Barstow,
Sounds like that guy shouldn't show up at another swap meet. The seller that is. That's some serious con job. Or maybe your friend shouldn't go to swap meets either.

Reminds of the switcheroo they used to do in Naples back in the 50's. My uncle was young and had a man approach him offering to sell him a brand new camera for near nothing. My uncle looked the camera over and decided it was a good deal. So the guy offers to wrap it up for my uncle and my uncle thinks that's a good idea too.

Uncle must be thinking, "Gee these street vendors in Naples are so kind." - tee hee hee

When my uncle got home after a long train ride he unwraps the camera to find that a stone of exactly the same weight as the camera is inside the box.

Anyone who has been conned knows that it's always the same trick. I have an offer you can't refuse, or the deal is too good to be true. Followed by, yeah you knew it was too good to be true but your own greed got the better of you.

As with my uncle, no one made him hand over his cash. He did it willingly.

Your friend bought something in a box without seeing it? Who's the sucker here?

 

Of course, we'll help you out. Which door did you come in?

Regards,

Pete Davies

 

Guys,Food for thought..

The last 5 Atlas locomotives I bought came off the use market and all 5 was in mint condition.The price of each unit was less the 50% of street price.A good deal.

As far as "New old stock".

If it been sitting on a hobby shop shelf since the 90s(don't laugh a local shop has
such items) then its brand new.

As far as old stock costing as much as new I don't think I would be interested unless it was a real rare item long OOP.

As far as use..You bought new and its now "used"..Price it accordingly.

 

New old stock is a good point. I used to have Gotta Be The First To Own It Fever.

I was always looking for something that hadn't been released yet. I would obsess about getting that new loco. I bet we've all been there.

Now I see all the stuff I couldn't afford to get back then when it was NEW at reduced prices.

For an example I always wanted an On30 Bachmann shay. I didn't have a layout for it. I just thought it was a cool looking loco. Now I can get it NEW for a reasonable price because it isn't NEW anymore... But wait it's NEW!!! Oh my head hurts. lol

I gotta get off the computer and go glue some dirt to the NEW layout that I have been working on for the past year or so.

 

I know of a hobby shop here in the Seattle area that has the first run Life Like GP 18 in NP. Originally I think these retailed somewhere $20-25. They have a $85 dollar price tag on it. The reason why? Well the new ones are going for that so that is what this one is worth too. This particular loco is NOT the split frame design equipped with flywheel but is the old design with the frame and seperate metal weights with the spring linkage. It is only worth $20 still to this day.

 

Unless they sell it. I hope they don't at $85, but sometimes people will buy for the paint scheme and not also for what's under the hood.

That's ridiculous. When I see that sort of thing at a hobby shop, online shop, or swap meet table I just move on. No sense arguing with people who think like that.

 

Wait, now I'm confused... if you put old dirt on a new layout, is the layout still new? Furthermore, if you get new dirt, and put it on a layout, how do you clean it?:tb-frown:

 

Wait! Is this topic of discussion NEW, NIB, or USED?

 

LOL

I can't help it. Yep, I tried to stay out of this. I just had to say...good discussion. Now keep up the fun and enjoy it.

Old dirt on a new layout...LOL!

Good one!