Electrofrog or Insulfrog Turnouts

jguess733 Apr 29, 2011

  1. jguess733

    jguess733 TrainBoard Member

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    I'm getting ready to start construction of my first N scale layout and got a box full of track (most of the components still in it's packaging) from a lady at a garage sale whose husband recently passed away. Apparently he would buy just about anything that that he needed or may need in the future that went on sale. The majority of the track is Peco code 55 and 80. I plan on using the code 55 stuff and selling the rest on ebay. Which of the turnouts should I use? The electrofrog or the insulfrog's? Thanks.
     
  2. Railroad Merchant

    Railroad Merchant TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Jason,

    I have a large N Scale layout (DCC) of Peco track with 35 turnouts. I used insulfrogs and have no issues with shorts or derailments.

    I purchased my track and turnouts from Chuck at Feather River Trains ( a TB Advertiser). He probably has them in stock or can order them for you if you need tons. Good luck!

    Roger
     
  3. DCESharkman

    DCESharkman TrainBoard Member

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    In the end, it rally makes no difference. All you need to do is add insulated joiners to the ElectroFrog frogs and they will never cause any grief either. But you still have forg power for the short wheelbase, slow moving locomotives.

    Using ElectroFrogs like this renders them as InsulFrogs, so you can mix and match all you want. If I recall correctly, only a few Code 55 pieces are InsulFrog, and they nare the Single Slip, the Double Slip, and the Long Crossing. I think everything else is Electrofrog.
     
  4. SteamDonkey74

    SteamDonkey74 TrainBoard Supporter

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    There's a lot of bad information out there about ElectroFrogs. Someone got the word far and wide that they don't work on DCC, and, as a result, a lot of people won't use them. Some of these same folks will also tell you to use automatic tranmission fluid to keep your track clean, or that plastic wheels or metal wheels are the instruments of the Devil.

    These do work on DCC layouts . I use them. I insulate the rails coming out the frog end and I do this because I like the fact that my short wheelbase locomotives don't get lost on these turnouts. I think they look better, too. I am not a big fan of plastic frogs.
     
  5. Railroad Merchant

    Railroad Merchant TrainBoard Member

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    David, that is good advice. When I first entered the world of DCC, I found that this sort of useful info was not always easy to find.

    Allan Gartner's website, Wiring for DCC might also help in understanding turnouts and has a section on frog polarity.

    Roger
     
  6. Tim Loutzenhiser

    Tim Loutzenhiser TrainBoard Supporter

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    Well folks, I'm here to tell ya that I have Micro Engineering code 70 turnouts on over 90% of my layout - they have powered frogs. It ain't exactly been a bowl of cherries - well, maybe a bowl of cherries with a lot of pits and some rotten cherries. If you use ME turnouts, read the directions that come with the package and heed the advice on those instructions. They are not kidding when they state that over time there will be a loss of electrical contact - the switch rails provide the electrical contact that provides power from the stock rails to the center section of the turnout. ME strongly recommends that the turnouts be power routed through the contacts on switch machines - or as I am doing, use a separate electrical switch that doubles as a switch throw device. ME turnouts have a small metal pad on the underside for soldering a wire to BEFORE installation and pushing it through a hole drilled in the roadbed - which I neglected to do.
    ME turnouts look great (they are a scale model of actual turnouts), but they require care. Does anyone know if ME has transitioned to making "DCC friendly" turnouts as they announced a long time ago?
    Maybe the Peco turnouts aren't so difficult.
     
  7. woodone

    woodone TrainBoard Member

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    I use Peco turnouts on my layout (N Scale) and I also use DCC.
    The one thing about the InsulFrogs is that some wheels of the locomotives are wide enough that they will short at the frog. I have had to paint the rails about 1/4 of an inch back of the frog so this does not happen. With the ElectroFrog's I don't need any paint.
     
  8. gregamer

    gregamer TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yes, ME has transitioned to DCC friendly turnouts, the point rails are jumpered to the stock rails. the frog is isolated and can be powered if you solder a lead to the bottom. The frog rails are dead and need to be fed or jumpered.
     
  9. retsignalmtr

    retsignalmtr TrainBoard Member

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    I use Peco insulfrogs and have the same problems with the wheels shorting the frogs. I changed the short reaction time on my command station (Digitrax DB150) to 1/2 second from the default of 1/8 second and it helped a little, but using nailpolish to extend the insulation worked best.
    I have many Peco Electrofrog switches that I have made more DCC friendly by cutting the rails ahead of the frogs, soldering jumpers between the stockrails and the lead rails so the points and stockrails have the same polarity and then power the frog through the switch machine contacts.
     
  10. randgust

    randgust TrainBoard Member

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    I'd use them both.

    Focus the electrofrogs in slow-speed areas where you will be creeping, yards, industrial tracks, and anyplace that small locomotives may be present.

    But the insulfrogs aren't bad.. no reason not to use them. I'd just tend to use the for main-line applications, staging yards, etc.

    One thing I would seriously do if your soldering skills are up to it is put flexible wire jumpers (strip the insulation off stranded wire and just use 3-4 strands) between the point and stock rails. That's the best possible tip I can give to assure long-term reliability.
     
  11. Arctic Train

    Arctic Train TrainBoard Member

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    I've installed a gaggle of Peco electrofrog turnouts, (25 code 80s, and 17 code 55s with 19 more to go) and I've only had 2 problems. One was due to a ham handed solder job that melted the point spring mechanism (no fault of the turnout), and one that had an excess amount of ballast gunk between the points and stock rail (again user error). The later was easly fixed with a bit of cleaning. To date I've found the point springs plenty adequate to provide positive electrical power routing without modification.

    Brian
     
  12. Bob Horn

    Bob Horn TrainBoard Member

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    I have 72 code 80 Electrofrog's on my layout, no problems. Bob
     
  13. woodone

    woodone TrainBoard Member

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    The question I have is are you using DC or DCC.
    The OP did not say which he was going to use.
    My experience is I had to paint the rails back from the frog or when some locomotives ran through the frog it would shut the system down when running DCC.
    Not all turnout would behave the same way with the same loco. There was some differences of just how much gap there was between the two rails at the frog.
    Some turnouts there was just barely a gap and those were the ones that gave me problems.
     
  14. hoyden

    hoyden TrainBoard Supporter

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    I have 40, code 55 electrofrog turnouts on my layout, including a double crossover and a double slip switch. The lesson I learned from this layout is "Feed the frog" always. I relied on the points to feed the rails and eventually the feed became unreliable (layout is about 5 years old). I now have to regularly clean the gap between the points and the stock rails when a locomotive stalls on a turnout. Fortunately this layout is a testbed and my new layout will have power routed electrical switches to feed the frog. I retrofitted about 10 switches with power routing and they work flawlessly. What a pain, however.

    I will need to decide whether to transition to Tortoise switch machines or stay with the Peco switch machines with their associated micro-switches. I will probably use both since I have such a large investment in Peco switch machines.

    I am debating whether to go the extra effort to make the turnouts DCC friendly; cutting gaps in the rails leading to the frog and installing small jumpers between those rails and the point rails. That sounds like a lot of work but I can see the value. My point rails show erosion and pitting from metal wheel sets that made momentary contact as some of the wheels passed between the stock rails and the point rails. I can see this momentary short on my Digitrax Zephyr because the numeric display will briefly flash to indicate an overload.
     
  15. Bob Horn

    Bob Horn TrainBoard Member

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    DCC. No problems and no paint. Bob.
     
  16. Tinhare

    Tinhare TrainBoard Member

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    Electrofrog for me. I like the idea of not having that dead piece of plastic.
    They are DCC friendly with no need to rewire them as per the Wiring for DCC link posted earlier.
    Remember to a) feed power to the turnout towards the frog and b) insulate the two rails leading from the frog. I use insulated rail joiners.
    If you want to power the turnouts using the Peco switch machine (PL10 or PL10E) you can also attach the Peco Accessory switch (PL13) and use it to power the frog. I do this as a no fail solution for getting power to the frogs.
     
  17. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    This subject jumps up here all to often.

    The answer for me is ...ELECTROG.

    Model Railroading is more about "Self Discovery". I would encourage you to find out for yourself why one is better then the other.

    Seldom does anyone ever really listen or take the best advice out there with a typical response of "I don't want to do that".

    So, despite what we've all said here....you need to make your own mistakes and learn what we've learned. If need be the "Hard Way".

    Go have some fun and then tell us what you have discovered.
     
  18. Railroad Merchant

    Railroad Merchant TrainBoard Member

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    A lot of great advice in this thread, but in my view, this post says it best. In review, my own layout is a mix because of advice I got from the NCE Users group a few years back.

    For more authoritative information, take a look at some of these books online or at your LHS. They have helped my friends and I, while helpful as references down the road. The latest volume is well written, BTW.

    Roger
     
  19. Tinhare

    Tinhare TrainBoard Member

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    One thing I forgot to mention is that if you are only going to use the Peco Code 55 turnouts then it is rather a mute point as they only do code 55 in electrofrogs. Although you could use the code 80 for hidden areas as long as the aren't slow running as was mentioned earlier.
    Peco turnouts are bullet proof and I highly recommend them, if only they would do them with a Nth American tie spacing like they do in HO. Why o why they won't do this in N I have no idea.
    I was in Beer, Devon at the Peco factory and I asked them and they said they have no plans to do so, shame. I now use FastTracks and build my own for this very reason.
     
  20. SteamDonkey74

    SteamDonkey74 TrainBoard Supporter

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    I really appreciate "Wiring for DCC" for lots of things but I agree on the turnout section. Either the Peco HO turnouts, which he seems to be covering, are substantially different electrically from the N scale ones or the information is inaccurate.

    I also agree with powering the frogs and not relying on the points. Cleaning the points for electrical contact is difficult and time consuming.
     

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