Is Kato becoming the Old Bachmann?

Life is too short too be miserable about my model trains. Just wish I could apply the same logic to my golf game.

Russ

 

Kato has had issues with their paint jobs, seemingly for decades. I remember discussion about the lack of a black outline on the lettering of the original run of UP SD45's. Turns out that for six months or so the UP painted their locomotives with plain red lettering (no black outline) and took delivery of new units thus lettered from GE. I don't recall any discussion of the shade of the yellow.

You really can't judge colors by photographs. Everything depends of the ambient color temperature, how the film is balanced for color, exposure and contrast. I took Mark's photo of the two shades of Kato passenger cars, copied it to my hard drive, and changed the exposure and contrast to the point where the color difference was significant. Mark has the actual models in hand, and he doesn't consider the variance as significant. Others have the model in hand and consider the difference important.

Another factor is that our eyes may physically not see color the same way. I've known people who cannot differentiate between orange and red. So if the color of Kato products bothers you, you have to decide what to do about it.

Yes, there are real (prototypical) color differences due to weathering, different paint shops, etc, but when Kato delivers a passenger set presented as newly delivered (c. 1952 or whatever) UP modelers have a right to expect that the manufacturer will get it right. I don't know if the yellow on this COLA set would bother me, but being primarily a Pennsy modeler who has to deal with such a wide range of manufacturers' versions of Tuscan Red and DGLE, I can sympathize!

As far as the overall quality of Kato products goes, I don't have enough recent Kato models to judge--just the GG1 which should have gold leaf lettering, the Broadway which should have a bit darker Tuscan Red, and the C55 4-6-2 which seems fine.

 

I never saw anything wrong with this. As no one makes an MPX in HO (and until recently neither in N), the F59 is the closest equivalent aesthetically.

And sure, for a system like say Caltrain you could run F40PHs and be prototypical. But there's a lot of new startups that *only* run MPX's - New Mexico Rail Runner is one that Athearn has released in both N and HO, and it's a beautiful scheme. In that instance the F59 is the closest you can get to the real thing.

As for Kato, I haven't personally had any problems, although I haven't purchased any US-spec equipment from them (just Japanese prototypes).

 

This discussion has wig wagged all over the place.

Here is a video you might be interested in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju6rvbu7Cps&NR=1

Coloration of the cars is interesting.

Tony,

In the retailer or stores defense:

I've been thinking about this ever since I read your input. Since, we both share working for a hobby shop in common. One fact perhaps we both over looked is when someone returns an item... at best we (the store) gets credit for the item either from the vendor we bought it from and/or the company that manufactured the item. It doesn't always cover the original wholesale cost of the item in question.

At best we (the store) can only hope to repair it ourselves and put it back out on the used equipment rack.

The best route to getting something done is to contact the manufacturer to see what, if anything, can be done to help you.

Just my two cents.

 

Having seen hundreds of actual kodachrome locos in both SP & ATSF the variety in paint shades were endless.

Kato may have not produced the shade you believe is correct but they did put the SF lettering on the correct end of the loco on both sides.

The plows may not match the rest of the orange on the SD45 but Kato is not the first to have that problem. Atlas has had that issue on several releases (ATSF yellow) too.

 

Well, for me they are not even close. But the point was, if someone is going to complain that a manufacturer is 'third tier' because the color on a locomotive is not quite 100% correct in their opinion, that is a comparison to other manufacturers. And other manufacturers have been making models that are much more 'wrong'.

 

As far as the COLA, a fellow club member brought his to the club yesterday to run. He had a derailment and for a little while he couldn't find one of his cars. (It had fallen into a net beneath a tunnel.) He said "I had eleven cars, one is missing!" and I looked and said "I see eleven cars right now." And he said, "oh don't count that baggage car, that's not from the set, it's a previous Kato model"

Point is, even although I'd already read these threads about the COLA and had been tipped off to a color difference, it was still too minor for me to notice. Even after I it had been pointed out to me, I still kinda struggled to see the difference.

 

I have some 80's bachmann stuff and the newer connie, mountain, and newest 10 wheeler...what an improvement. I have old kato stuff original up mikado, some new kato GG1 and GS4.

To compare kato to bachmann is silly. I mean really...really...but hey it is your opinion...

 

there is no pleasing some peaples kids!

 

I agree with JoeS on this. I too have the newer connie & mountain. They are good runners and have had no problems with them. They still do not compare operationally to a KATO unit but because of KATO's presence through the years the Bman has improved and hopefully will continue to improve their quality. IMHO, all of their "old" stuff is nothing but junk. So to say that KATO is approaching the " old Bman in quality", is totally silly and not wise.

KATO has been accused of neglecting the US railroads units and that they concentrate more on European and Japanese prototypes. I wonder why. With all of the KATO bashing that has begun and will most likely continue, we will possibly see KATO not interested in doing US models while being beaten to death over some rather small perceived error. If they lose interest in the US market, do you think that Bman, Athearn, IM, and others will be trying to improve to compete with KATO? I would rather doubt it and our scale will become stagnant as far as quality goes. Quality Control is now a rather questionable thing for some of our manufacturers as it stands .

I am not saying that we as purchasers should accept mediocrity, or worse, but rather suggest that we address the problems from different angles. Bashing a manufacturer on a forum will alienate the mfg. and who knows they might just quit building in N scale. Back to the beginning at square one for N scalers when that happens. I think the e-tailers that are in the middle need to be held more accountable in the return process.

Not trying to create enemies folks, just stating my opinions. Model railroading is supposed to be fun so let's enjoy our investments in this wonderfull hobby and hope that our scale continues to advance.

Carl

 

And it will advance.

I wonder how long it takes for memories to fade when it comes to remembering the amount of stuff we had and the lack of quality, as we went through the 70's and 80's. The 90's improved slightly and then it took off in 2000.

I wonder should we be thankful for what we have?

 

The colour on the Kodachrome SD45's is not YELLOW, it is ORANGE, it is INCORRECT.

Yellow is not orange no matter what film you use to photograph it or what light it is under. It is not a different shade, it is a different colour.

Sorry for shouting.

 

To me this looks yellow

http://espee.railfan.net/picindex/kodachromes/3775_rob_jacox_spsf-gp9e.jpg

 

Interesting thread, so as a longtime N scaler here is my 1 cents worth. On the issue of color. There was and still is the issues of variance for a lot of reasons already stated here and not least of all age and weathering. A number of rail historical groups have done the research by having old paint chips tested and have been able to recreate reasonably accurate colors for factory paint as delivered. However the railroads own paintshops could vary on repaints and repairs. Add in the fact of more than one location on a system for this work for some roads and the variances increase. The type of paints used and the colors can weather differently. That said the historical groups are more than willing to work with a manufacturer to insure that a reasonably good model of thier railroad is produced in any scale. That said most consists are produced as new, from the factory, along with the locos, and the paint should be as reasonably close to the original for all cars and locos. Same said for any add on sets. Basing any color off old photos can be bad, since a number of them were often enhanced, varied by the film manufacturer, or process lab, and some of the photos have been restored due to age.

Again said the historical societies are often the answer. I only ask that the lines and lettering are correct and crisp and the color reasonably accurate. I have had the lettering applied on a model be completely different in color, and font from Microscale and from the manufacturer which can make it difficult to change out a simple number or a car name.

As far as mechanical qualities go I believe that the folks are exceeding thier capabilities in providing too much mechanical detail. The old adage that the more moving parts a thing has the more to go wrong. What is basically needed is good reliable electrical pick-up, the heck with all the other fancy moving garbage, and the ability for the trucks to be able to negotiate the typical model railroad radius without derailing. A lot of layouts have some tight trackage squeezed in there which unfortunately means that some locos will not reliably run on that trackage. Rather than designing using the NMRA standards for a given wheelbase, or staying with locos that will run on what we have, we tend to buy stuff that that is not designed to run on that radius and then blame the manufacturer because it doesn't. The amount of detail and quality of the stuff out there now far exceeds the stuff made 20 years ago however I think that we've about reached the limit, maybe pushed past it some. The add on details like wire handrails and metal stanchions, fine little airhorns and bells, cab sunshades, etc. is great, and a great improvement over the older stuff, but do I need sprung trucks? What I need is reliable electrical pick-up, made as foolproof as possible. So is Kato going to far?

Probably a good example of mechanical detail is the Atlas Shay. First it is probabaly the finest model ever made of one, and that includes the few brass offerings. They really did thier homework and produced a little mechanical marvel of whirling side shafts and gears. However I saw the problem that was going to come up and did. It was the operators. The real thing never exceeded more than about 18 mph. The model was so well designed that it copied the prototype. It too was designed to be run at very low speed. People got them in thier hands and popped the powerpack to wide open. Needless to say things came apart, and Atlas got the blame for a defective product. Then there was the issue of handling. That is some delicate running gear not meant for the five thumb individual to get thier mits on. So the question is are we asking for too much when we should be saying to Kato concentrate on better and accurate paint and lettering. nice add on external details, and keep the mechanism simple and reliable?

I currently roster in my fleet a number of Kato products, or other manufacturers products with Kato mechanisms under them. Of course all my stuff is older and I don't have a GS4 and won't because its not my road, and I don't have any SDXP-66Cs or whatever because I'm a first gen. diesel modeler. All my earlier Kato, Concor, Atlas, LL, IM, MT, and even some Bmann run fine, after some weeding out of the Bmann older junk. In my book the best mechanism out there are Kato. However I don't have anything newer and won't unless they produce something in a first generation unit or another steam loco. Sometimes you need to take a step back. I don't think that Kato comes even close to some of the earlier Bmann and Mehano stuff, and I wouldn't begin to compare them. So if anything Kato just needs to take a step back and evaluate what made them so good and re-embrace those qualities. And if they are using Chinese sources maybe they need to stop and put the manufacturing back in mainland Japan. Lot of people lost thier livelyhoods there recently and I've seen a lot of poor quality coming out of China on just about everyting.

 

Good... that there's someone else on board here who isn't afraid to write a long response, explanation, expose and something worth considering.

I will have to read it later but thanks for sharing.

 

Consistent QC.....NOT!!!!

Like John Moore above, I have been around for quite some time, but I know there are guys out there like Brakie that have been around since the beginning of time, er, I mean N scale.

I agree with John on many points except for a couple. Overall, ever since the intro of the Atlas RS3 the quality of Kato and its "copycat" manufacturers has raised the bar in overall quality. When it came out, yes we had flywheels, 5 pole motors, detailed engraving, Kato motors, etc, but it was the RS3 that put most of these qualities together to provide a very smooth running and powerful quiet locomotive.

But there were glitches then and glitches now, and now we know just about everyone in the industry is capable. Even MTL with a Maine Box Car with a saying that it is "linning the cities...." I think really meant "linking". They are no different than us....we commit errors and some times serious ones. I sure know I have.

But these errors and glitches if handled correctly can bring about advancement, improvement, change, and even revolutionary orientation so sometimes we have to just "grit it out", and go on.

With some exceptions I think the overall quality of the Chinese made mechanisms since '96 are quite good, with some exceptions of ConCor re-issues, which took a few years to correct. Even now I have Chinese made Northerns, E units, and Hudsons, which are all comparable to their competition.

With regard to John's remarks about Mehano, I will grant I have one, smooth running, quiet-as-a-Kato RSD15 with see through radiator grilles, decent engraving, 5 pole motor, all wheel drive and I cherish it. However I also have some of their single truck drive, clunky, noisy, Alco C420's but they run, and sit nicely on my storage yard.

I used to think that Kato and Atlas were infallible, but that thought no longer exists. Everyone is human.

Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman

 

I have to say that without Kato, I would not be in N guage. I started in N guage just over a year ago after a lifetime of collecting HO equipment with no place to run it. In December 2009, I went to the WGH show in Long Beach, feeling a bit disgusted with myself. I was still a collector rather than a "model railroader" as I had no space to build a layout for the passenger trains I loved. I talked to a guy at the show that sold pre-built layouts using lots of helixes to save space. They reminded me of circus rides. I talked to another HO manufacturer who told me that there was now no HO lounge car planned for the HO El Capitan train set even though I had spent a small fortune buying the rest of the cars for that train. Needless to say, I was kind of disgusted with the hobby in general.

I strolled over to the N guage modular layout section of the show and was stunned to see an absolutely perfect combined ATSF El Capitan/Super Chief roll by. It was followed by a SP Daylight pulled by a gem-like GS-4. I assumed it was very expensive brass, but the guy had several of these beautiful little locomotives, so I assumed he was rich. I was used to N guage locomotives with thick handrails, big flanges and out of scale proportions. Obviously, N guage had come a long way since I had last looked at it. I talked to the guys and was astonished to find that they were buying these beautiful passenger sets all at once - packed in the same box by Kato, and the prices were very reasonable.

I went home and started looking at the stuff available. Model Railroader had just started the "Salt Lake" project layout in N guage using Unitrack. Here was a layout that would fit in a reasonable space that could handle full length passenger trains. I started a buying frenzy to get all of the Kato N guage stuff before it became unavailable. I bought the "Salt Lake" track package, Seivers benchwork and, the rest is history. Today, I have a layout that is nearly complete with scenery and ballasted track. It runs very well and I am very happy with it. At last, I am a "model railroader".

I recently had to send my first Kato product back for repair. I had a GS-4 burn out the DCC controller. I replaced it with another controller which also burned out. Unwilling to spend any more money on this locomotive, I sent it in for repair. I was a bit nervous cause I had seen some bad reviews about Kato repair service. My GS-4 was returned today - just a week after I mailed it in. A new DCC controller was installed and there was no charge for anything. I ran the locomotive, backwards and forwards around the layout - through many switchs, etc. and all works perfectly. i am a satisfied customer.

I have no issues at all with my new COLA set. I love it. Yes, the color is slightly different from the earlier sets that I scored off of Ebay, but the original COLA was not a single new train purchased as a set from the manufacturer. It was a collection of cars that UP purchased over a period of years and each car was subject to paint standards and weathering that often differed from the adjacent car. Variations in the finish would be more prototypical than a single train painted in exactly the same color.

Finally, I do have a couple of areas that I would like to see Kato improve on. DCC and sound is a must for me and I would like to see Kato catch up with some of the other manufacturers in this regard. A GS-4 with factory installed DCC and sound would be nice - or at least a NMRA plug for easier installation of DCC/Sound. My COLA set will not be complete untill I see more sleepers available - especially the "Pacific" series. I hope that Kato will make add-on packs available as they have done with other trains, but it is not a given at this time, so I must wait and see. I would prefer that Kato make more of their cars available as singles so we could make more accurate trains without having to buy full sets to rob a few cars from them.

There is a lot of really fine equipment availabble in N guage now. I model western roads, especially SP. My Intermountain AC-12 with Micro Tsunami DCC/sound looks and runs perfectly. It sounds just the way I remember them as a child. I have the little Fox valley Hiawatha set with DCC/sound and lighting in each car. It, too runs and looks great as does much of the other stuff that I have purchased. But I still believe Kato is at or near the top in quality, accuracy and sheer variety of product.

Gerry

 

Continual squeaky wheels don't always get grease.

Sometimes they're sent out to pasture.

 

I would say that the title of this thread is purposely provocative and full of hyperbole – Kato now third tier manufacturer – give me a break. Atlas has only introduced a couple of new locomotives in the last 2 years; Bachmann is just now bringing their diesels up to snuff; LL has not introduced any total new diesel in years; FVM is new importer that shows promise; IM no new diesel in years but their FP7s are nice; and of course Kato. Been buying Kato made locos since 1979 and only had one bad one. That was the GG1 which I returned and later bought another one that runs like a top. Think Kato is the Lionel of N gauge and would stop buying N gauge locos if Kato went away.

 

OK ,now I have steamers from both manufacturers (Kato mikado, Bachmann 2-8-0) As far as I am concerned both locos run, look equally well. I can see no difference in quality between them. Now I don't have the latest diesels that both make as thats not where I model, so its hard to comment on minor color varriations . All I can say about this is that different locos weather different ways ( as already pointed out ) and color differences are prototype, (just look how Conrail blue weathers). I remember many years back when b-man came out with the N&W J, how some moaned about the red stripe. I feel lucky to have manufacturers that bring out new products and take the risks of selling them. ( although bigger runs WOULD be nice). I feel that we should all be supporting our manufacturers , and if something has a minor color difference than one would like, theres always weathering. A bit of dust and grime will blend just about anything in that might stand out.

And now (after posting and adding my 2cents of course ) Isn't this post in violation of the no bashing policy ???? Mike