Up until today, I would have been the guy saying 'IT NEVER HAPPENED' and stomp away. Then, working on some research for another thread, I stumbled on this. Elk River Coal & Lumber #20, Swandale, WV. http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/LOCOMOTIVES/ERCL/Plymouth20SwandaleOPT.jpg Apparently they actually pulled log trains with it between 1962 and 1968, from what I can gather. Unbelievable. And dig the 4-wheel bobber caboose with it. More information here: Loco14
You mean this bobber? The model is the Bachmann caboose kitbashed. 70T GE's graced the Meadow River Lumber Co, as well as a few other WV based logging operations. The engine in your link, is I believe a 50T Plymouth. I'll dig through my files and see what I can come up with for other small diesel logging operations
That other BC&G link has more information on the diesel and they identify it as a 44-tonner... not sure myself. Built by Plymouth in October of 1942 as C/N 4426. It had a 300 hp engine. It was originally owned by the Pennsylvania Ordinance Works of Allenwood, PA, then went to the US Army at Ft. Holabird, MD, then to the US Steel Corp. in Trenton, MI. In 1954 the engine was owned by Cole-Layer-Trumble Co. of Dayton, OH and then to the Pittsburg, Allegheny & McKees Rocks RR before arriving at the Georgia Pacific Swandale operation in 1962 But from the looks of this, this is one of the rarer operations where a light centercab actually got sent into the woods with empty log cars - not just a mill switch or dump-to-mill line haul operation. I've only every seen evidence of one of these in Pennsylvania, and it used a 20-ton gasoline Plymouth pulling two log cars in the 40's. I'll grant you the 70-tonners, particularly on the west coast. But I've never seen a 44-ton centercab with log cars anywhere else but here myself. Few things appear to be more gutless than a 44-tonner diesel for logging. On the BC&G page they say the crews didn't like it.
Meadow River also operated a center cab 80T Porter for a short period of time, however I cannot find an image online. There is one in the book about the company. Cherry River Boom and Lumber had 3 70T GE's and one 20T GE. Here in VA, the Franklin and Carolina operated two 65T Whitcomb's in logging service and arrived in the last years of the RR's existence before being sold to the ACL. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0200/fc110.jpg http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~vaschs/Camp.htm A great WV logging resource is the state library. search logging or lumber and you'll get plenty of results however none show diesels in logging service West Virginia Historical Photographs Collection:¤Search
I've seen that one with the Whitcombs, it would be cooler if it were pulling a log train. I was more than interested in that because of my 65-ton resin kit on the Tomytec mechanism. As a logging fan, the question I've been asked many times is if industrial diesels were actually on logging railroads - loading trains up on spurs - and if the Bachmann GE 44-tonner was ever used for logging. With the advent of truck logging, running logging branches pretty much died after WWII even with steam, and only where you had long line-hauls (truck dump to mill) did the logging railroad survive at all. So finding a 44-ton centercab and photos of what looks like actual log train handling into the Swandale sawmill (on a logging railroad that had been handled by Shays and Climaxes) is pretty amazing to me. I've been in Swandale, too, and the only sign that anything was ever there are the fire hydrants and some cleared fields. Whitcombs at least had a reputation as luggers if you could get past the Buda engines. I've never talked to anybody that said a GE 44-tonner could handle more than a couple heavy cars up anything steeper than a 2% grade, including the GE magazine ads. The 70-tonners with a 600hp Cooper Bessemer in them really weren't intended for low-speed lugging and never got much of a steel mill following either. I never knew Meadow River Lumber had 70-tonners! How cool is this: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=278533 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=292229 Being wrong is actually a lot of fun. Talking to the volunteers that run the Stewartstown, where they have a 20-ton Plymouth and a GE 44-tonner - the gasoline Plymouth with an actual transmission and clutch has a better reputation as a 'lugger'. I've switched cars myself with a real GE 25-tonner at our local museum and was instantly impressed with the physics of how quickly a loaded car can drag you around instead of the other way around. Wouldn't want to have logs behind me, for sure!
If I remember correctly, the Swandale operation acquired the diesel after Shay 19 began to fall apart. It began life on the Tioga Lumber Co as their No. 2 in 1905. It was then sold to the Birch Valley Lumber Co under the same number, and later went to Cherry River Boom and Lumber before going to ERC&L. Then it became W.M. Ritter, and lastly Georgia Pacific, who retired it in favor of the diesel. Then 19 was sold to the Dry Gulch Jct & Tombstone RR in Wytheville, Va as a tourist line. it ran there for a very short time, and is now in Lima, Ohio on display. Ive been researching the F&C for a book im writing, and have yet to find images of the whitcombs with log cars (i have found them with pulp wood racks). Many operations here after WWII that were steam were either tore up and turned into trucking routes, or switched over to small plymouth locomotives. The "loki's" would run out into the swamp to collect logs, bring them to the landing, where trucks then took over. I operate 36" steam at a local theme park on a regular basis, and was amazed how different the train handles with 5 empty cars as compared to 5 loaded cars (350 people). I can only imagine a 5 car loaded log train pushing me down a mountain...
I get asked on my Climax 18-tonner kits of wny they only do 3-4 cars and it is pretty amazing to realize that not only didn't they operate that light, but they basically totally relied on handbrakes bringing the loaded train down. The locomotive was only used to get empties uphill on a well-designed operation.
Starting at picture 342, is the MRLC diesel era, and image 346 is the center cab porter. Very nice series of images! KODAK Gallery | Photo Merchandise Now back on the subject of the Bachmann 44T GE... Though I haven't found images to support that some where in logging service, I will say it is plausible. Seeing how other operations continued with diesels, I wouldn't doubt that IF a logging operation did have a 44T GE, they would use it at least on rare occasions, for logging service in the woods. On that note, the Bachmann model isn't something that cant be kit bashed either. The frame and the shell for that matter, could be modified to resemble one of the Porter or Plymouth locomotives rather easily. I've been debating getting a 44T, not for my logging RR, but to kitbash into a 44T Davenport.
Quincy Railroad While not used for bringing trees out of the hills, Quincy Railroad used a 44T to get cars from the mill in town to the WP interchange 3.27 miles away. Pretty slow going I'd bet as the terrain isn't exactly level. QRR: #2 is at Niles Canyon #3, #4, and #1100 (TR6A) are at Portola, with 1100 available for Run-A-Locomotive #12 (SW1200) is still doing around 1000 carloads a year, according to UP.
Most of the center-cabs I have seen in anything to do with logging or lumbering were mill switchers. So many Pacific NW logging operations became mostly truck operations by the time they retired their steam, and most of these operations didn't spend a lot of money buying the latest and greatest locomotives anyway. Still, I wouldn't let that scare anyone away from doing a Coudabin Logging operation on their own pike. I would think that 44-ton center-cabs would be a lot better for a relatively flat operation than anything with 2 percent or greater grades. This would most likely put such a thing, if it were set in the West, east of the Cascades. We're just too hilly on the Pacific side of the Cascades for much of anything like that. I have been looking at possibly using my 44-tonner in a What If scenario for my Oregon-American mill, e.g., "what if this mill had continued past 1957?" In that case it would be the mill switcher, assembling the outgoing trains and that sort of thing, while I'd possibly have strings of 70-tonners pulling trains up into and back down out of the hills, or, going even later, maybe start using retired SW 1200's re-badged from other roads, or even Geeps.
I think a 44T GE could handle at least 3 log cars on a steep grade. In 1981 Cass ran their 45T GE up the mountain to Whitaker... which it had to traverse a 4% grade. 19810500-15RBs
My little 44 toner will pull 8 MT boxcars up a 2% grade no sweat. My (even littler) MDT switcher can haul 10 up the same grade. If tractive abilities are linier a 44 toner would handle 3 log cars up a 4% with no problems at all. Brian
That shot of a 45-tonner at Whittaker is really impressive, that's no 4% grade there - it's more like 7.1% and over Ref: http://www.cassrailroad.com/CASS%20TRACK%20GUIDE.pdf My 1949 GE 'Diesel Electric Switcherule' for a 45-tonner/300hp states the following ratings : 1781 tons on the level at 3.55mph 215 tons on 3% (figure 4 50-ton cars or 3-70-ton cars) and that's with no real curves; only 10 lb./curve of resistance. Jack that up to 30 lb. and you drop down to only 168 tons. Nothing is listed above 3%! And if you need to get up that 3% hill at 20mph, you can only do 20 tons. There aren't that many people on the train....they probably made them get off and walk! EDIT: This source says the made it up with a flatcar, as in singular: Cass Roster - Locomotives And it also lists all the repairs that were done after that one trip of the hill from hell. They never tried that again. Seriously, the model probably does better, which is one of the things about little diesels that doesn't deserve getting complained about. Steam of course, gained horsepower the faster it ran, so if you could get it started you could make the hill until you started slipping. The 'pooping out' factor on diesels with the great tractive effort when hardly moving and nothing at speed was why a lot of old heads didn't care for them. It's very much not linear on the speed/tractive effort curves. And for real fun, take a GE 25-tonner uphill on a 3% grade and find out you can only do 76 tons.. one car, if you're lucky. My model can manage 4 tank cars around a 9" curve uphill on 2%, which is way better.
The old "never say never" arises again. It's just like using electric power in logging trains. I would not have believed it, until I came upon the Red River Lumber Company in California. Boxcab E50
I was looking at "Pino Grande", the logging railroad book which also covers the Camino, Placerville & Lake Tahoe. Wondering about that cool 44-tonner, as in .... you don't suppose. The 44-tonner is indicated as purely being the common-carrier power and yard switcher. No logger there.... BUT, on page 132 on the roster pages I kinda froze.. ""No 13". Plymouth Gasoline. Acquired in 1940, this was first used for switching around Camino. Later it worked a few years at the reload landing in Camp 15. It was at this landing that log were shifted from trucks to railroad cars for the trip to Pino Grande". It appears to be narrow gauge, and it also appears to be this model Plymouth: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pcrr5.jpg And, I found the one and only true 'diesel' logging railroad I've seen in Pennsylvania. In Book 1, "Pitch Pine and Prop Timber" (woo woo woo) on page 183, here it is. The A. C. Buch operation; Roxbury, Franklin County, PA. Seven miles of logging railroad not built until 1926, and the ONLY locomotive they ever owned on their standard-gauge logging railroad was a gasoline Milwaukee locomotive. The photo is priceless, a little critter with four conventional log cars (like the Quality Craft or 25' Alan Curtis cars) piled way high. "The log train made two trips a day, and hauled a maximum of four cars downhill. The northbound grades were very heavy and at several places the locomotive could only handle one loaded car". The operation closed in 1931. The locomotive appears to be this model... http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/milwaukee16.jpg That's pure and unadulterated, internal combustion logging railroad guys. Critters in the woods. Might be rare, but sure not impossible. Notice however, that the gasoline units with clutches are just as popular as the diesel-electrics, and probably a lot less complicated to maintain!
First of all I recommend a good book for a guide for more modern logging. That is Trains, Tracks & Tall Timber by Matt Coleman. You get a lot of photos of equipment, some mill operation diagrams, plus a number of elevated or aerial shots of lumber and paper mills. Probably a number of or advertisers have it. That said on to the 44 tionners. The typical 44 tonner basically could not cut it as the road engine on most logging shows unless doubleheaded. Even the 70 tonner was not sufficient used as a single unit. However they and other centercab locos were great at the dump and in the mill yards, and in trundling out short cuts of cars to the Class 1 interchanges. What you will find more often is the use of switchers like the SW units of 1000 HP or more, Baldwins, Alcos, FM, and others like them running out their 2nd lives in logging service. Even locos like the U25B could be found in multiple unit lash-ups of up to 4 units bringing in the logs from the reload points. Most of the smaller 1000 HP units were equipped for MU and usually ran as a pair although some of the higher HP units did run as singles. Another interesting modeling point is the use of steam tenders and tankcars in train as fire cars and track sprinklers. The above referenced book has a Alco unit with a steam tender in matching paint in tow, and then the string of log flats. Lots of modeling possibilities with 1st and some early 2nd generation diesel in the logging end of things.
The 44T in the first post is a Plymouth DE model. That model was introduced to compete with other MFG's for military contracts. Says they sold 30 units between 1942 and 1960. They had 2 traction motors, not 4. Before they closed in 1999 they were working on a new line of DE's. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0108/glcc8.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercedita_Train_2.JPG http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=301260&nseq=3
The fun part about this thread is that John, I agree completely with that conclusion, and the only thing that keeps getting in the way is that apparently some loggers didn't read the book. The Bachmann 44 and 70- tonners are such a great, 8-wheel drive, out-of-the-box good mechanism, you just have to wonder. Like I said, I would have debated and defended that 'no way' shot until I ran across that BC&G shot with the bobber. It's not a GE, but I'll say close enough. Never saw the West Virginia 70-tonners until this thread, let alone a single one pulling a log train. Or the photo evidence of a GE 45-tonner at Whittaker in 1981. Possibly permanently ruined, but still there up a 7.1% grade. Wow. Another personal favorite is Southwest Forest Products at Flagstaff. It's not a pure logger, it was a 'truck dump to mill' operation, but it lasted to 1967. They wore out the steam 2-6-6-2 and bought a used ex-Rock Island Baldwin S-12 switcher. That did not go well, it was so heavy it snapped the rails underneath it. It got parked and they went back and fired up the 2-8-0 again and it ran until the end. An S-12 weighs in at 108 tons, and snapped 50-lb logging rail. Oops. My own father tried hard to save the Sheffield & Tionesta, the common-carrier logger not far away from me, for pure business reasons, when it filed for abandonment. His lands and sawmill supplied the S&T's biggest customer, the Mayburg Chemical Company, with chemical wood for charcoal and acetone distillation. He put in an offer to buy and operate it to the ICC. The ICC turned him down and closed the railroad and it was sold for war scrap in 1942. The chemical plant immediately closed as well. But I often wonder how it would have worked postwar - a chemical wood truck reload on the south end, inbound coal hoppers, outbound tank cars of acetone, only a handful of cars and a relatively long and flat water-level main line 2-3 days a week. I'm figuring a 44-tonner would have worked just fine (as we're only 60 miles from Erie), and my Dad would have actually owned a railroad.. at least for while, and somewhat unwillingly!
Fun thing about Model Railroading is anything is possible only limited by imagination, tools, and resources. Back when I started getting into logging equipment and when there was an abundance of cheap SW9s around I bashed one into this centercab logger. Now suprisingly doing some research back then I found that a number of the smaller steam manufactures also got into producing some unique little critters that had sandomes like a steamer and other things, except they were internal combustion. I created this little beast and also took three of Bmanns MDTs and made a ABA set. Can't find the picture of the ABA but here tis the centercab.
