Midwest Narrow Gauge - Request for Info

TetsuUma Jan 8, 2011

  1. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    Does anyone model any of the midwest narrow gauge lines that sprang up in the 1870s-1880s such as the Toledo, Cincinnati & St Louis; the Springfield, Effingham & Southeastern or the Cairo & St Louis? If so, I'd appreciate knowing what rolling stock are you using and what tips you have.

    Andy
    Tetsu Uma

    EDIT: Darn! I should have put request for info in the thread title. Sorry.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2011
  2. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    What did you want in the thread title?

    Boxcab E50
     
  3. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    I forgot you could use your godlike Admin powers. [​IMG]

    How about "Midwest Narrow Gauge - Request for Info"?

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
  4. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Topic title is now changed. Hopefully it will draw the desired responses.

    Boxcab E50
     
  5. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks. I'm guessing it is a limited group but it doesn't hurt to ask.

    Andy
    Tetsu Uma
     
  6. DSP&P fan

    DSP&P fan TrainBoard Member

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    While not actively modeling a midwest NG, they are of great interest to me...especially those with Cincinnati/Ohio ties (and the TC&Stl is at or near the top of the list).

    For TC&Stl freight cars, the only decent view I'm aware of is in the Nickel Plate Story. It's a big print of an accident; I believe it's the start of the chapter on the new Clover Leaf.

    For motive power, we know a fair bit more. The easiest locomotives to model were the Cincinnati Northern (later TC&Stl and then CL&N) 4-4-0s #1 and #2. They were Baldwin 8-18Cs...sisters to the Eureka...and were originally painted Lake & Gold, Style 49 (Lake & Gold were the same colors as the Eureka; Style 49 was the same linework as the D&RG's Olive Green 4-4-0s). Other power of interest would be the sharp Brooks moguls, both basic types were used by the TC&Stl...these two types typified by the U&N/SV/WP&Y/KM moguls and the CC/DSP&P/BZ&C examples. (these moguls and the Baldwin 4-4-0s were the most classic NG power of the NG movement)

    There are a couple photos in the Nickel Plate Story showing passenger cars on the TC&Stl, but the best info is in Narrow Gauge to the Panhandle (W&W) and Narrow Gauge in Ohio (CL&N) which collectively have plans and a few photos of the Cincinnati Northern passenger cars.

    Common NG passenger cars used in the midwest, Pennsylvania, Colorado, and California were the Barney & Smith 40'6" and 35" coaches. Here in Cincinnati, at least two roads operated the 40'6" cars, with another having very similar cars. Barney & Smith, Jackson & Sharp, and Billmeyer & Smalls arched window passenger cars are quite appropriate...especially B&S cars in the midwest. Steer clear of all of the D&RGW, C&S, and Bachmann passenger cars...none are decent stand-ins for the period cars. They really need arched windows and less modern roof ends...both of which could be bashed using one of the above as a starting point.

    In general, standard freight car designs can be used quite safely...the J&S 24' boxcar of D&RG fame...which was based on Billmeyer & Small's original, partially patent protected work in 1871.

    I've been planning to make a trip to Lima and maybe BGSU to research period newspaper reports on the TC&Stl, but haven't gotten around to it.

    I plan on building the (Cincinnati) College Hill Railroad's 40'6" Barney & Smith combine. I also have a basket case NWSL 4-4-0 to turn into Miami Valley/Cincinnati Northern #1.

    Michael
     
  7. DSP&P fan

    DSP&P fan TrainBoard Member

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    I forgot to mention, the TC&Stl had 2-8-0s which could be modeled using the various C-16s as a base. There were 4 of these Baldwin 10-24Es, #8, 9, 37, & 38. #8 & #9 were lettered for the Dayton & South Eastern, #37 & 38 were lettered for the TD&B. They were Olive Green and Baldwin Style 103, dead ringers for South Pacific Coast #13 (David Fletcher has this style online at PacificNG).

    Keeping with 24'-27' rolling stock is the way to go. Steer clear of the various D&RGW freight cars, as well as the C&S cars...they are far too modern. The cars would have been around 10t capacity. The old Clear Creek Models kits would be great starting points for characteristic freight cars.

    Michael
     
  8. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    I've just started investigating this topic and only have the pictures in Hilton's book to work from. This is excellent info. Have you given any thought to roadbed and how you would model it?

    I've been thinking about two of the basic premises of the NG movement, moving goods slowly and cheaply and moving extracative product (ore, lumber, agricultural products) to a processing center so you eliminate transload. What if you combined an extacative industry (revenue) with a line that for whatever reason is impossible to convert? Something like a Bellevue & Cascade but profitable.

    Andy
    Tetsu Uma
     
  9. DSP&P fan

    DSP&P fan TrainBoard Member

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    The roadbed: Nothing more than a flat piece of plywood or whatever you'd choose with rough hewn ties (long ties with the ends clipped and some of the sides defaced a little). Perhaps using a very slight, maybe 1/8th inch in O-scale roadbed. Hand laying directly into plywood works just fine with micro spikes...afterall, many of the roads spared too many expenses...cutting far too many corners.

    I don't think it should be looked at as impossible to convert...for that is purely a matter of spending enough $$$...SG power is more nimble than many modelers think (the DT&I 2-8-4s were designed to negotiate tighter curves than any of the D&RGW ng 2-8-2s...as parts of the southern end of the DT&I were originally poorly constructed NG).

    Rather, I'd suggest that if someone were modeling one of these after the NG movement, they justify it as there was simply no reason to convert it. For example, the Oahu Railway probably ran more daily trains than the D&RGW, RGS, SPng, WP&Y, and EBT combined...but since it didn't interchange with anything but 3' gauge roads, it remained NG. Similarly, the EBT had little reason since 90%+ of its freight was destined for Mt. Union. The same holds, to a degree, in Maine where the NG roads connected to ports. If you check the California section in Hilton, you'll see that this was the case for a number of those roads in the early days (M&SV, NPC, SCRR, SVRR, & PCRy)...they took local products to ports...until the hated CP/SP built into their neighborhoods...creating the need to interchange (and, in most cases, bought them out for conversion).

    If I were modeling a Midwestern NG, I'd either do the Little Giant around Delphos (I grew up near there), or I'd model the Cincinnati Northern (CL&N) and Cincinnati & Eastern. I'd model the CL&N from Court Street in Cincinnati for at least the first 15 miles including the branch to the Zoo, the double track to Blue Ash, and the first couple of miles of the C&E starting at their interchange with the CL&N (this was just east of Xavier University...think NCAA basketball)...I'd model it in 1883. Modeling in the years 1871-1883 requires no justification for it being NG...since we all know it is the railroad of the future! Modeling in 1884-1905, it is best defended by the road having plans to convert.

    My interest in Ohio NG is primarily historic...I don't let myself think about it too much, as I don't want it to interfere with my focus on modeling the Oahu Railway and South Park.

    I love hearing people interested in Midwestern NGs.

    Michael
     
  10. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    I would add too narrow ROW and ability to acquire used NG equipment cheap to the reasons prototypes did not or delayed convertion.

    As for track, I can see this becoming a hand laying project. Benefits of that is I could use SG ties (like the Quincy & Torch Lake) or really ratty ones widely spaced. An alternative would be to cut some ties out of flextrack and respace the rest but I'm reluctant go that route. If anyone has any experience, good or bad, cutting ties out of flextrack, I'd love to hear them. At least if my trackwork looks bad, it would be prototypical and operations could include the inevitable derailments.

    Andy
    Tetsu Uma
     
  11. Drzmark

    Drzmark TrainBoard Member

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    There were also several narrow gauges in Iowa with the last one, Bellevue & Cascade, lasting until the early 1930s. The attached article was found in a newspaper in the 1940's I believe and shows a small loco in Des Moines Iowa in the 1880's. Can't tell what the actual gauge is from the photo.
    Mark
     

    Attached Files:

  12. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    What a neat little lokey. I'd bet the On30 modelers might have fun re-creating that one.

    Boxcab E50
     
  13. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    The Bellevue & Cascade was a 3' gauge running between its namesake towns in NE Iowa. The Chicago , Clinton, Dubuque & Minnesota took over the property in 1879 and it fell to The Milwaukee Road when they leased the CCD&M in 1880. According to George Hilton in American Narrow Gauge Railroads, "It was generally agreed by engineers of the railroad and the local residents that the physical standards of the branch did not lend themselves to standard gauging." The railroad had three Pittsburgh 4-4-0s until 1905 when the Milwaukee Road bought a former Au Sable & Northwestern (MI) 2-6-0 and 1918 when they bought a Cooke 2-8-0 (DSP&P 67/C&S 55). In 1926 & 1928, the Milwaukee Road brought in former Catskill & Tannersville outside frame 2-6-0s (there's a model I'd like to see) and retired the 4-4-0s. The line was scrapped in 1936.

    (Edit: Sorry if I sound like I'm teaching class. One of the aspects I love about Model Railroading is learning a road and its history. I just like to share for the benefit of the group.)

    I think the B&C would be fun to model (I believe I menioned it in an earlier post in this thread). You have a prototype reason for remaining narrow gauge into the 20th Century, Northeastern Iowa has a sawtooth profile for interesting terrain, and as a captive line, the B&C required a lot of rolling stock because it couldn't interchange. Also, Bellevue is across the river from the Savannah Army Depot and with a little creative license, you could relocate that to the Iowa side and have the line serve the Army depot.

    That article is very interesting as well. Although Des Moines was served by several narrow gauge lines, I get the feeling from the open passenger car and from the tone of the article that it was some kind of street railway. The locomotive looks to be 3' gauge and Boxcab is right, that little saddletank is pretty neat and would be a fun model.

    Thanks for the info!

    Andy
    Tetsu Uma
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2011
  14. Drzmark

    Drzmark TrainBoard Member

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    Yes the B&C would be a great raiload to model. In fact the book; Iowas last narrow gauge, is all about the Bellevue & Cascade. In 1933 the Milwaukee Road sold the B&C to a private firm which used several unique types of motive power. A perfect narrow gauge to model! I'm toying with the idea of creating a losely based On30 layout on the B&C.
     
  15. TetsuUma

    TetsuUma TrainBoard Member

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    That might be a good choice with all the good looking On30 rolling stock currently available. A Bachmann 4-4-0, 2-6-0 or outside frame 2-8-0 would look pretty good, I think. The railbus would be cool, too, if you were trying to model the post Milwaukee Road era when the railroad couldn't even make the $150 a month payment. If you do this, plan on having a lot of stock cars.

    That photo in the article has me thinking as well. I think you could change the trucks on the Bachmann HO Jackson open side excursion car and replicate that in HOn3 or HOn30. I don't know what to do about the saddle tank, though.

    Andy
    Tetsu Uma
     

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