I modeled trains in my teens and early 20’s. I had a nice single line HO freight layout of inexpensive hobby store quality (as opposed to Toys-R-Us) loco and stock. It was a nicely detailed 4’x8’. I lost it in a flood in my mid twenties and didn’t have the time or $$ to replace it. I am interested in returning to the hobby and would like to model a fantasy line – think steam-punk novels (I’m sure I already have purists sighing). I have a 10.5’ x 11.5’ room to work with. Things have changed in 20+ years and I have a few questions. First is about scale. N-scale was not really around in a big way 20 years ago – the models lacked any sort of detail. Now they seem to have come of age. Is n scale a worthy consideration for the above project? Second is about DCC. This was something I could only dream about 2 decades ago. I would like to run multiple steam locos with passenger cars perhaps from the early, middle, and late age of steam. I am aware this can be done with DCC if I can find the locos and cars, but the old timers used to run multi lines without DCC. How was this done? Third… is there a decent source of used models? I’ve checked Craig’s List in the Chicago/Milwaukee/Northern ,IL /Southern,WI markets and come up empty. If I must by new, is there a good discounted internet store? The local Hobby Lobby seems too expensive and the only other hobby shop in town is more expensive and has no real stock. Thanks for your help.
Well the desire exists, that's great. It sounds like you're leaning towards N scale. I had HO layouts for some 26 years until I made the decision to go with N. You can have a decent N scale layout in a 10x11' room whereas in HO you're stuck with a narrow gauge line or something. It's all about curve radius and how long you want your cars/locos and trains to be. If you're fine with short trains, HO is great, but if you wanna see trains with 20 cars or more snake around your layout, N is the way to go these days, as you have seen. And us N scalers are more than happy to welcome another one of our own to the hobby DCC is all the rage now, but as of now, I'm still rocking the DC power pack. But if you wanna see two or more trains run on the same track, then DCC is a must. If you just have one train on your layout, DCC is more of a luxury item. I get used trains from local model RR swap meets. Find out about you local model RR clubs, a lot of them host local swap meets and you'll find sweet deals. Otherwise check the Great Train Expo or Greenberg train show websites for their schedules. eBay is another good source. Trains are rare on Craigslist, but don't count it out, you might find something you want another day.
The TrainBoard advertisers are great source for MRR supply, mostly new, but some may have used equipment.
I don't mind short trains. In fact the plan is to have two or three short passenger steamers running through a variety of fantasy scenes (Jurassic Park, Middle Earth, The Moon, etc). As I said above, I remember oldtimers running more than one train. Perhaps on seperate lines? I like the trains to run nice and slow. BTW: I have a 5 1/2 year old son who is dying to help (my teen girl is even slightly interested).
When you initially said Steam punk, my mind envisioned a City scene...a Gotham if you will. I envisioned 20th Century Limited and Milwaukee Hiawatha streamlined steam engines. I felt that a gritty city layout lent itself to HO. Now since you've expanded it to multiple different fantasy Viginettes, N-scale may make more sense as you can make more scenes since it's a smaller scale. I mean, Minas Tirith isn't going to fit in either case...at least not to scale, but you might be able to give the sense of the thing in N scale. On the other hand, your "theme" suggests that the details in the scenery is going to be a lot more important than being able to run long trains and having realistic curves. So that may tilt it back in favor of HO where everything is bigger allowing for more detail. So in other words, from the point of the theme, either could work, I think you need to develop a better vision for how you expect the scenes to play out and see if those ideas fit better with N or HO. From a quality of equipment issue, N and HO are pretty solid, though for used equipment, there's a lot more available in HO that is...of reasonable quality...especially in steam. One more thing to consider with scale. In a room the size you describe, an HO railroad will almost have to be "around the walls" and require a duck under or lift in the doorway. With N scale, there's enough room to make a dogbone style layout and avoid that. (you may want to do it anyway, but you don't HAVE to) As for DCC vs DC, you don't NEED DCC to run multiple trains. DC with cab wiring will work fine. 2 power packs with electrical switches to chose between them with the layout split up into sections so that each section can choose which power pack independently. DCC in some ways makes that easy since you don't need to switch between the 2 power packs. You can even do it all from one controller no fuss no muss. But you're going to pay for that and to put DCC in used equipment is going to require some electrical work. So you need to decide if that's worth it to you. As for hobby supplies. You don't say exactly where you are, but you imply the Chicago or Milwaukee Metro areas. I can't speak to Hobby Shops in Milwaukee, but it is the home town to one of the biggest MR wholesalers and THE biggest magazine. So certainly Milwaukee has Model railroaders. THere will be swap meets and sales. I recommend going to Kalmbach publishing's website Trains.com - Trains, Model Trains, Model Railroading, Toy Trains, Garden Trains, Railroad News and checking out the Calander. It may list upcoming events in your area. If you're willing to make the trip down to the western suburbs of Chicago, then the Great Midwest Train show will be a good resource. It's held monthly. Great Midwest Train Show | Home Welcome back to the hobby. I admire your goal of combining a couple of interests here and I look forward to hearing more.
Robb, I agree with YoHo's comments. Your layout concept is really interesting and I can't wait to see what you come up with. Although I'm a die-hard N scaler, for an all-steam fantasy-type layout you should seriously consider HO. Don't underestimate the value of a good local hobby shop...and there are some excellent ones in the Milwaukee area (and, I'm sure, in Chicago too).
Thanks for the advice guys. I don't really like the "around the walls" idea. I was thinking of a "U" shaped layout. I know 10.5’ x 11.5’ is a bit tight, but I happy to have the room! Is there open source or reasonably priced software to help in the design process? I live in 70 - 75 miles from both Chicago and Milwaukee, near Cherry Valley, IL. There is a HobbyTown in Loves Park and a small shop in Rockford, but not much more than that. I don't mind travelling for a deal though.
The best track planning software I have ever used is XtrkCad and is completely free, (though, the guy offering/maintaining it has apparently ended updates, so get it while you can) http://www.xtrkcad.org/Wikka/HomePage If you get XtrkCad here's a tip. Install the Unitrack library and plan using the Unitrack sectional pieces. Planning goes much much faster and easier. Then when you're ready for construction, simply choose your track of choice and follow the center lines.
If you want a U shaped layout in that space, then you really need to seriously consider N scale. In order to run HO scale steam reliably, then you're going to need a minimum of 24" radius (you might cheat down to 22", but it would be dicey.) which means once you add in about 4" of guard space, you're looking at 52" of benchwork to turn the track around in a loop. With N scale, you could do the same in about half the space, or broaden out your curves and have even better performance.
If you are in the Milwaukee area, the NMRA National Train Show is there this weekend, July 16-18. It's worth a trip, since you can see pretty much everything that the hobby has to offer under one roof. I have a number of HO steam engines which run on 18-inch curves. They are not true "big steam" locomotives, but more in the "medium steam" category. If you select carefully, you can find a number of these. You also have to be careful when you choose passenger cars, because they too will have problems with tight curves. You owe it to yourself to not only look, but also listen to various models. Over the last few years, on-board sound has become very popular in HO, and it's starting to appear in N-scale as well. Here, HO has a distinct advantage, as there's more room for speakers in the engines. Most of the sound options are for DCC, although some will run with DC to a limited extent. Since you're just starting out, and have no investment in either engines or wiring, I would definitely go with DCC. It simplifies the wiring tremendously. (It still has to be solid, of course, but that's true of DC as well.) For the young engineer, it's also much easier to just run the train wherever it is on the layout, instead of worrying about where the blocks start and end.
Just to echo the others while I too am a dedicated N Scale person you will find far more steam era equipment in HO. That said since you are likely going to be doing a large amount of scratch building that may be moot. As for fantasy? Go for it. In the end my layout will be more of a kinetic sculpture than a mode railroad.
IN HO, if you were willing to expand from U shaped to more of an L shape with 2 say 52"-54" lobes offset from each other, you might be able to do this successfully, but it will be tight. And yes, if you go for smaller steam, then the tight radius won't matter. Again, I had in my head NYC streamlined Hudsons and Milwaukee 4-4-2 Hiawathas both of which would look perfect in a stylized Art Deco Gotham City. If you go for earlier steam or just generally stay small, then my concerns might go away. Actually, the Hiawatha probably would work out OK. The Hudson might too, but it would be more dicey. Athearn used to make some excellent "shorty" passenger cars. In other words, they looked like the real ones, but were intentionally made shorter than the real ones. They did this so they would perform well on sharp curves. If you use these and perhaps 19th century equipment you certainly could do 22" radius and maybe even 18". And since this is a fantasy, you really don't need to worry about rivet counting accuracy.
I think I have to rule out "N" scale. I took another look at the trains today at HobbyTown, I think they are just too small for what I am looking to model. The "L" shape HO layout with offset lobes is a good idea. I've been trying to model the space with Atlas' Right Track software, and I think this will work. I desired to go with small steam anyway so that will not be a problem. I was thinking along the lines of a John Bull with a few passenger cars. I also like the idea of a DeWitt Clinton. Perhaps something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57-0VHxCAYs&feature=related The problem I'm finding with small steam is DCC compatibility. From everything folks have said to me, DCC is the only way to go about this. Is it possible to convert some of these smaller steam DC models to DCC?
How about this http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200429902 I like that it is unmarked, small, and comes with another piece of equipment I will likely need -- the controller. there seem to me many Class J type 4-8-4's but they are probably too big, eh?
Robb-you will find that every modeler has his/her own agenda on scales, power, layouts. I have mine also but I wouldn't push it on you. Do you want to sit and watch trains run around and around and around or do you want to build things and perhaps run a train in a more "realistic" manner? Maybe N is an answer, maybe HO...I have seen very nice and satisfying layouts built in larger scales in the space you have. Consider going your own way, sounds like you are interested in a more "non-traditional" type of line. Also, there are other alternatives to powering a layout that are "beyond the envelope". Sounds like you are a younger fellow so you can take the time to decide what you want to do. The hobby has changed radically in the past few years and where it's headed is anybodys' guess. Do your own thing and have fun doing it. If you have an interest in things "off the beaten path", let me know. There are many out here who are considered outlaws and lone wolves and are some of the best modelers around. Take care.. Woodie
Sure. I think my project qualifies. Outlaws and lone wolves; that's like saying family and friends. Point me in that direction Mogollon... Tell me what you've got.
In Same Situation Robb, My situation is very much the same as yours, returning to the hobby after a 40 year holiday. I don't know how much advice I can give you but if you want comfort in knowing someone else is asking many of the same questions as you then here I am. I invite you to follow along with my reintroduction to the hobby at my LK&O blog. Would enjoy trading learning experiences with you. Welcome back to the world's greatest hobby! Alan
That little Bachmann would be a good fit. The HO Dewitt Clinton is so small that it actually has an Nscale motor in it, so you're right, you aren't going to fit a DCC controller in there. You could probably DCC a 4-4-0 though.
Robb-yes, look at other scales and forms of power. Not many here are interested in what I use-radio control with onboard batteries and fewer are into my scale-1:35 (military scale) running on 16.5MM gauge (HO, On30) but I like to be different. http://freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=1222&forum_id=17 Here is s link to my thread on freerails which shows my layout and ideas. I don't expect to "win converts" to what I do, just point out other alternatives. Since you like fantasy/freelancing, you might be interested. Actually, I have found that being in an "odball" scale is somewhat easier on the wallet in that you can find lots of supplies and details that are not aimed at model railroaders. It seems that when the term "for model railroad use" is applied, the price goes up. Example: detail kits for military scale cost about half what a model rr detail kit would be. A 1:32 (close to my scale) Ford Model T die cast auto is about 10 bucks vs 20 for an HO scale car and 50 for an O scale version. This is all outside the box, envelope, bag, or what have you. Just something to consider. http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45 And here is a link to the radio control thread if you are interested. Have fun and run a train today. Woodie
I am 67 years old. I have been in the hobby since I was 9 years old. I have worked in Lionel, HO, n,On30 and have learned one thing...THE HARD WAY:never buy used engines unless you are there in person to see them run. You will be much better off as a beginner to have a real hobby shop standing behind you and you will be much better off running nice new WARRANTEED engines. Later on you can take chances with old, used and perhaps obsolete equipment. You may not like this advice, but you are not in a hobby to save money. If you want to save money put it in a bank. If you want to enjoy model trains as a newcomer buy the best equipment and engines you can afford and you will be spending your time running trains instead of fighting with rounding up parts, finding repair shops and---finally---scrapping the used stuff. Otherwise Hello and welcome to a great hobby. BTW I model in N, On30 and Three rail O gauge. Odd-d
