Hello I am new to the forum and also new to serious model railroading.After having several Lionel trains both old and new to run for the enjoyment of my 4 nephews (not to mention my Mother and myself) we are going to do a real multi-track layout with scenery etc. My table is 8'x16' and my plan is to have 3 independent layouts for the moment on 2 levels with the idea of eventually connecting all three layouts so that if so desired one train could navigate all three layouts as if it were one.One layout will be approximately 60' long and the other 2 50'.The 60' and 1 of the 50's will each have 2 remote switches each and 2 manual switches the other 50' will just have 2 manual switches.All of the track is Lionel FasTrack. I have a 50s era post war Lionel engine as well as a 5 or 6 year old Lionel NYC Berkshire w/ TrainSounds and also a brand new Lionel Santa Fe El Capitan diesel passenger train. My major question is weather the 275w ZW transformer would be ok to power 2 of the layouts and if the TrainSounds will still work both during operation and when in neutral for the radio calls.I have also read on some internet forums about connecting power to more then one track across the layout. Right now I have 2 CW-80 transformer and a older postwar 110w transformer.I was planing to use one or both of the 80w transformers for accessories and the 110w transformer for the 50' 2 manual switch layout. I don't really need the remote controlled capacity as I plan on having a control station to work all transformers and switches etc.from one spot. Any pointers or tips would be greatly appreciated
Welcome to TrainBoard!!!!!!! I would think one of our O Scalers will get back with you soon... :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up: :thumbs_up:
Well, most locos, old and new, draw about 2-3 amps when pulling a dozen cars or so on level track or up reasonable (3%) inclines. Generally you run at less than full throttle, but even at a full 22 volts, 3 amps per train times 3 trains times 22 volts is only right at 198 - basically 200, watts, well below your ZW's 275watt rating. I think you would be okay unless you start running a couple more locos or move up to some big two or four motor engines.
Welcome to TrainBoard! I cannot speak much about the post-1969 Lionel. I didn't own a large amount of it, and most was just collected rather than run. The ZW 275 was made to easily run two trains at once. I'm speaking of examples such as the "O" with MagneTraction diesels- Like their EMD F units in A-A, A-B configurations. Plus, at the same time, have enough beans to keep a boat load of accessories going. Not sure if the above helps. Boxcab E50
My biggest question is will the train sounds work with the older ZW inclusing the crew talk sounds.My secondary question was about doing multiple power connections spaced equally throughout each layout to help power distribution.I am already confident that the ZW wont have much trouble powering to decent sized layouts or one really big one.
Yes. Multiple power feeds spaced around the layout will be a BIG help. What gauge of wire did you have in mind for that purpose? This will make a difference as well. I always did this on my layouts. As far as the sounds go, I do not know. Boxcab E50
The gauge of the wire and the spacing is something I have no idea about the longest wire run will not be over 20' how often should I attach a power supply? every 10'? 15'? As I said in the OP I plan to eventually put switches in to make all three layouts connect and put block sections in to either run 3 trains or 2 or 1 over the whole system.I plan on pre-wiring the track so it can be all connected to one side of the ZW thru toggle switches to activate certain portions when needed.I also read that its a good idea to get inline fuses for the power supply from the ZW as the circuit breakers in it take up to 5 seconds to trip and thats enough time to cause damage to the newer engines in case of derailment and shorting,but I don't know what size fuses to use.
What type of track are you using? The newer Fastrack? Or their older style tinplate? On mine, I put feeders in about every five feet. I had a bit of humidity, and was using the old tinplate style. Which meant that pin connections were a bit loose at times, and I got a little corrosion. I have never built anything with their newer track system. You can't go wrong in putting in too many feeders. Try starting with one every 8-10 feet. If that's not enough, simply drop another in the middle of that length. For my preference, I'd not use anything smaller than 18 gauge wiring, possibly even go 16 gauge. Slightly smaller is not unsafe, it just might not do the job you require. Boxcab E50
Yes I am using the new Fastrack I was thinking about using 18 Gauge wire and spacing it every 10ft or so.
I have about 220 feet of Fastrack and feed it every 15-20 feet - this means a train is never more than 10 feet from the nearest feed and always between two feed points, and that results in smooth running and no variation in speed I can perceive over the whole layout. I use #8 copper wire for the feeds, which vary from a length of just 6 to over 35 feet as-the-wire-runs. #8 wire is overkill but it means I have no voltage drop from the transformer to even the fathest feed point. I had wired originally with #16 to a point 35 feet across the layout and I had noticeably less voltage "at the other end" of the loop, even right at the feed point. For a smaller layout #12 would be more than large enough.
I went to Radio Shack today and started getting some of the wiring components.I got some terminal strips (European) for wiring the switch remotes,I also picked up some toggle switches to control power feed to the different blocks and some grounding blocks for power distribution to the track from Home Depot.I think I am going to get some 14 or 16 gauge wire for the power feeds as the longest run will only be 16-18 feet and I am planing to distribute power every 10'. This is a long term project with no great rush I have the bench work 75% complete and I will build the last section this weekend and lay the track for the bottom 2 layouts.Next weekend I will start running the power and screwing down the track.My intention is to complete the bottom 2 layouts as far as wiring and operationally before I build the upper level and laying track on it doing the wiring and securing the track. I plan to build several fairly large islands for the upper level out of 1x pine boards and then use bridges and trestle I am going to make myself to run a passenger layout from town to town on the islands.The lower level will be mostly freight/industrial.Maybe in 6 months or a year I plan to then connect all three layouts with switches and a graduated trestle from the lower to the upper level and I am building that expansion plan into the layout as I go with the wiring etc. I had a question regarding inline fuses.What type and amp fuses should I put in? Blade type? or the older glass tube type?.Are 15amp fuses enough? too much?
Do you have some type of equipment, which their installion instructions have suggested addition of in line fusing? The ZW has built in circuit breakers. Boxcab E50
I was told at my local Lionel dealer that i should use In-line fuses in case of derailment so it wouldnt short out the more delicate components in the modern engines.I also just got off the phone with Davis at Lioneltransformer.com and he I asked him about inline fuses for the older transformers when used with modern engines.He told me the circuit breaker in the ZW is for protection the transformer not for potential shorts to the engine and said that a 15amp inline fuse between the transformer and track is a very good idea. He also shed a little light on my original question about the compatibility of modern engine sounds.Basically he told me it is a crap shoot some engine sounds will work with the older ZW's and some will not.He also told me about a whistle activation button that lion sells to try to solves some of the sound compatibility problems between older transformers and modern engines and he told me that sometimes it works and sometimes not as well.
I can see his point about the newest equipment and their electronic circuitry. Of course with the older stuff, without such gadgets, it was never a problem. True- The circuit breaker protects the transformer. When it opens, it also protects all else downstream. None of those transformers I ever used let me down. ZW 275, VW, KW, LW, 1033, etc. They all performed so very well, for so many years. All this talk about Lionel- Argh. You never get it out of your blood. I still daydream about all the stuff I had. The days of TCA and TTOS. The sights, the sounds, the smells. If I had any spare cash, it would be easy to fall to the siren call..... Boxcab E50
I used a 275W ZW to power a 2005-vintage TMCC engine, and it seems to do just fine. I also use Fastrack.
Good fuses are much "faster" in breaking a circuit in any situation than the fastest breakers, so they aren't a bad idea, just overkill in my opinion: I'm a degree electrical engineer and worked as a power systems engineer for forty years including ten in the R&D lab on high voltage fuse and breaker division for the major electrical manufacturer in that area of technology, and dealt with them all my life, and I don't use fuses on my layout: fuses are fast, but I don't expect it to be a problem: I personally can't imagine how a de-rerailment of a loco would route the short circuit current into the electronics. Anyway, fuses won't hurt anything so use them if you want to. As to wiring, the longer the route as-the-wire runs, the larger wire (smaller AWG number) you need in order to keep the voltage loss over the wire to an insignifcant level. I planned my layout to handle 5 amps maximum current to any loop: this would be two big locos running simultaneously at scale speeds, one of them climbing a hill, and about a dozen lighted cars (all of my passenger cars and cabooses are lighted - none pulls much current but in combination, a dozen pull a bit less than half an amp. this is a table of run-of-wire length versus wire size to assure no more than 12 volt total loss. Length (ft) AWG Size 5 18 10 16 15 14 20 12 25 12 (barely) 30 10 35 10 40 10 (barely) 45 8 50 8 For example, if you have a 25 foot route to a feed point, #12 is good. This values are based on standard (Power Engineering 101) voltage-drop computations and neglect several small factors, most of which mean they are slightly conservative. But picking wires this size will assure you that you have no problems with uneven voltages around a layout. I built a voltage measurement car (lighting caboose with body removed and a voltmeter strapped to its power leads) and get less than 1/4 volt variation around my layout when it is being pulled by a 2xF3 combination, a total of four motors drawing 3.8 amps.
Lee- Thanks for the wiring info. My past experiences with Lionel and AF certainly match your chart. Boxcab E50
The info on the wires is a big help for my layout. Last year at the Delavan Train Show, the layout itself started on fire underneath because my 20 gauge wires were too small to handle such a large load. They melted and eventually lit on fire. I now use 16 gauge wire at the main feeders to the track, but I think that that is a bit of overkill. I currently am using Lionel's tinplate track from the 50's in my parent's basement. We have no insulation so temperature and humidity are always a big problem. Not only do I have the climate to work with, but the track I am using is my dad's, and he never took care of it. So, as you can probably guess, the rails are slopped out, and we have touse finishing nails as pinns in some areas. Also, some of the track has been used so many times that now even the ends of the rails have cracks that are forming from the constant use. Now looking at it, i suppose that 16 gauge feeders, is not that much overkill seeing as how I have to cope with climate changes and bad pinfit. I use an old Lionel 250 watt ZW, some other small Lionel transformer that I can't remember the name of, and a new Lionel CW-80. These power my layout without a problem.
