Guys, I'm getting back into modeling. I've been out for a few years and I'm sorta at a crossroad in what I want to model now. I've been collecting and playing around with N scale for about 10 years now. But I'm considering moving up to HO scale. I'm having a hard time deciding what I want. I'm going to post on the HO and N sections so I can get a better picture from both groups. I've broken down each scales based of my current my situation. N Pros: I already have a small collection of engines and rolling stock. Smaller scale is better suited for my apartment Cons: Tired of waiting for stuff to come out for N. Small and its harder for me decal, paint, etc... HO Pros: Lots of vendors to choose from. Pretty much every engine and freight car I want, is available by a wide variety of vendors I can probably do my own kits, easier to work with Cons: Have to start from the beginning Can’t model much in the space I have at best 3.5/4 x 11 layout This isn't a contest on bashing the other scale because I really like both. That's why this decision is sooo hard for me. Please do not be offended if I ask you to elaborate, I'm not trying to be rude but i'm just trying to make sure I make the best choice. Whatever I choose I’m planning on committing to that scale.
What era are you wanting to model? That question would play big for me if I was deciding between scales. There are some things that HO has that N doesn't, depending on time period modeled. -Mike
thats a very good question. what time period? HO has more to offer in the older years (1900-1950's) while N scales smaller size makes it easy to model long modern trains.
I guess I'll get my hand dirty on this one... I used to have HO as a kid in the 1960's to early 1970's. I made a double loop on a 3.5' by 5.5' piece of plywood with four casters on the bottom so I could roll it under my bed. As a pre-teen... it was okay... I didn't have a real prototype in mind and any equipment was fine. I really didn't care if the train was going roundy-round... but... it eventually got boring. That whole setup was sold to a family friend when we moved and I didn't get back into the hobby til I was 25 yrs old. I remembered the limitations that HO had when I got back into the hobby. My space constraints were similar as a young adult as they were when I was a kid. The reality is that the 'volume' of track and trains is more than three to one in favor of N scale even though N scale is about half a big as HO. Consider this... in HO a 400' prototype radius would not likely be a mainline curve... yet it would take a 55" radius in HO to achieve that curve.... while in N scale it would be a 30" radius. Obviously with a 4' width as you've noted... it would make your maximum curves in HO 23" (giving 1" from each edge) which is a prototype 167' radius... not even good enough for spur tracks to industries. At least in N scale the equivalent is 306' and is workable for industrial spurs. The space you have is probably a great HO switching size... 40' to 50' boxcars and 4 axle diesels would be the best choices for the space. In N scale you could make a good layout which allows larger rolling stock and engines to run in the same space. You probably would want to conceal the turns to minimize the appearance of larger rolling stock 'overhang' if you choose large intermodal or passenger equipment. In a straight run of about 7' or so in HO (which is what you'd have left after subtracting 2' from each end for curves)... you could only put about one locomotive and twelve cars... IF they are 40' cars. In N scale you could put 2 locomotives and about 20 40'cars in the same space. NOW... think about structures. A typical N scale industrial structure takes about 5" x 7" of space (35 square inches)... the equivalent HO structure would be 9.15" x 12.85" (117.5 square inches) a ratio of OVER 3 to 1.... basically you could put three N scale structures n the space one HO structure takes. This relationship continues with other scenic aspects as well. So in ending this discussion... the real issue here is... what you plan to do in the space you have is far more important than the types and availabilty of HO versus N. If you are doing transition era switching... then HO is probably going to satisfy your needs. Longer trains and scenery are the domain of N and Z scales. In fact... if I were starting today as a model railroader... I'd be mulling over N versus Z.
Other good questions to ask are: What type of a layout do you want? Are you an operator who enjoys shunting cars back and fourth or do you prefer long trains and rolling scenery? For switching, go with HO; long rolling trains, N scale. Is a full layout desired, or do individual dioramas suffice? N scale would allow an open air layout with distinct destinations and track in between. In HO, you could divide several dioramas with backdrops and have many individual scenes, but no in betweens. Is diving straight into HO worth side stepping the wait for products in N scale? 5 years down the road, what happens if all the locos and rolling stock you originally desired become available in N scale? Would you regret having sacrificed scale space for desired products? If George (mtntrainman) jumps in, he'll as you about the 2 foot rule. Detailing N scale is harder, but at 2 feet will really be a big factor? Also, if you have steady hands, using those telescope goggles or a magnifying glass armature will bring the size up to HO or bigger while applying decals and such. For me, all my answers pointed to N scale. In recent days, they even point farther down to Z, however the financial reasons put the final damper on that. Luckily in the debate of N vs HO, cost is a mute point as they are nearly identical. Of course in your case, that adds one more question: Do you really want to take the time to unload all your N scale items and build up an inventory in HO? Good luck with the decision. *cough* N scale! *cough*
I think the question is how long should I have to wait? You have narrowed it down to the 2 biggest points N scale - I HATE waiting long periods. Well the released one engine, and freight car i was wanting when I wasnt modeling. So I guess I have to wait another decade or 2 for another run. HO - has the limitations I dont want. 12 cars dont sound to appealing. And JUST a switching layout is my only option because of space. Also starting all over again. *sigh*
I think I had a similar situation 25 years ago. I had a H0 layout in my parents' house, and was now living in my own apartment elsewhere. Someone proposed that I tried H0 narrow gauge because he knew that I loved to build and modify models. So I tried, but it was still way to big for my space. So I ended up in N, and discovered that the models were not so bad. I am still modeling in that scale, and do some kit building and -bashing there as well. The argument that you can't get everything you want in N scale is understood, but probably it would not fit in your available space if everything were available , just because we normally have lots of wishes and limited space (and funding). Just some thoughts and past experiences.
Yeah I should have added that to the question. Are the cars/locos you desire similar to many N scalers or would they be one offs or used by limited railroads. If they are of the high profile "N scale wants" your wait might not be too long. If they are more rare, you might be looking at a decade or so, if at all. But then that goes with the 2 foot rule as well. Would you be able to accept minor differences and just go with a similar model, or does it have to be exactly like the prototype. Also, I find that trainboard is a huge resource for helping find and building your own custom/kitbashed locos and rolling stock. Unless it's something very rare in the real world, chances are there is an N scale model close enough that can be bashed into it. In fact there are many members who produce and sell their own products which you might not find at the hobby shop otherwise. Could you clue us in to some of the products you wish for?
I say, why choose?? Do both. Do N scale in your home because it fits, and then do HO at a club somewhere...thats what I do...works great...why should MR be a limiting thing? I am even thinking about a little HOn3...well, maybe not...but I like the idea...my point is, this hobby is too big to just limit yourself to one scale if you don't want to...so enjoy..relax, have fun...and do both...hope this helps...
Might we ask what loco/car is so key to your plans that is missing right now? I think the era you are talking about is very well covered in N. Maybe a few Alco's missing but otherwise I can't think of too many things missing that don't have a close enough substitute right now. I'm a steamhead myself but I have assembled a present day consist for running on Ntrak shows. I model the I&O and the only thing missing that I would like to see is large modern Trinity covered hopper. For loco's, I have GP9, GP30, GP38-2, GP40-3, MP15, SD40, SD40-2, SD40T-2, SD45, SD45T-2, SD70M all covered. Some of those even came factory painted (SD40T-2, and SD70M's) appropriate for the road. The only thing I need to finish out the roster would be an updated GP50 and a GP30 High Hood. Both at buildable should I decide I don't want to wait. Should I want to do the same in HO, the only thing factory painted that I have seen would be the GP30 High Hood. The one thing I am missing in N. The others would have to be created and painted but that is part of the fun of modeling.
If you've even looking at 1985-ish, the average freight car was at least 50' and a great number of longer cars were the norm. Typical locomotive was an EMD SD40-2 on most big roads; a GP38 on smaller ones; GP-7/9's on shortlines. Secondhand Conrail stuff was appearing all over. That's the era N is probably best at. That sets itself fairly well for basic N, the equipment, car sizes, and train sizes are OK within the space you've got. HO can be forced in there (I was in HO for years) but if you want to have anything that looks like a train do anything more than back and forth switching, N it is. I did a fairly advanced layout on 3x6. N though, takes a different mindset to be happy. This isn't HO. You have to be a lot more careful about quality material and part selection (particularly on legacy stuff), that's why these forums thrive over here because it isn't dumb luck that it just 'works'. We really do make a sincere attempt to keep people from getting so frustrated they just pitch it. One of the reasons I enjoy N is that if you ARE trying to do something specific, you're going to have to evolve from a box opener into a modeler. There's going to be something, for your railroad, that you want, that just isn't made. So, you can a) not go there, b) complain and wait... c) substitute within reason d) get into kitbashing, painting, scratchbuilding to what you want. Unlike in HO, you can make a really passable kitbash with very little material, and there is just a TON of used stuff on the auction sites to hack up with razor saws. Parts and decals are a little tricky, but this is also the era of home resin casting and home-printed decals, and a lot of us (including me) are going that route to go highly specific. Even photoetching. And once you've done it, you can share that stuff with others. Individuals do custom painting and services just as sophisticated as HO, if there's that one locomotive you've always wanted that just isn't made. If that's really not for you, at least you're asking those questions going in. One thing that is pretty much gone from N scale is the awful running characteristics and the awful proportions. You've got a pretty good population now that demands excellence in both areas and the manufacturers have risen to task. Look how we're reacting to a 44-tonner, which is old, old news in HO. And, don't stay in one scale just because you have some already. I was in HO for years, had a lot of stuff, it was rather painful to sell it all off and go to N. I did it purely for the space conflict. But I wouldn't go back now if I did have the space.
Oh...Oh...OHHH...my turn!...my turn !!! 1) You've started your collection of N. To me this means 3 things. You've already got some stuff you wanted. Selling it all and starting again in HO would be an unnecessary PITA !! Your heart says N all the way. 2) I am 60...my eyes aint what they used to be. I have a magnifying hood and I have a magnifying desk light. My hands are as big as Shaq's !! I get by just fine when working on N scale. 3) Space? You will enjoy more in less space with N. 4) Waiting for certain stuff to come out in N? See #1 above. 5) The 2 foot rule...lol. * Besides...we have TrainBoard. We have the N scale Auctions...the N scale trainstore...and what seems like a gazillion members in N who are more then willing to help ya get/build/detail whatever ya want in N. .
I began in HO as a kid and later on I had a large HO layout when I had a full basement. When we moved, a large space for a layout was no longer in the cards and I went to N scale. I also do Z scale (wait time for products make N waits look like mere minutes) and like the idea of realistic length trains in a relatively small space. I also belong to two Z scale clubs that use modular layouts for shows, etc. I am building a new N layout in the garage and will focus my Z on the modules. In N my era is the mid-1950s to early 1960s (SP&S and GN) and find most of what I need is available although some need to be custom painted and detailed. In Z, my focus is less limited with both transition and modern equipment. I guess what I am saying is I enjoy both scales for different reasons and in my view, model railroading should be all about enjoyment! John
I am a bi scaler so I will give you a view with cold facts you'll not hear from the HO boys and girls.. First I am not bias and base this on my experience in both scales. First N Scale. Glad you ask..For me my return to N Scale as my primary scale has been a blessing as it rekindled my hobby interest to include painting and decaling...N scale has a lot more going for it then many may think.No other scale offers so much in a little space.Sure we are missing a lot of things that is readily available in HO but,these nice things comes at a price. HO. Again glad you ask. HO may have a lot more as far as some locomotives and a larger overall selection but,again its comes with a price. That 3.5/4 x 11 isn't much room and leaves you 18" and 22" curves-very small and limiting the size of the equipment you can use. As far as "Pretty much every engine and freight car I want, is available by a wide variety of vendors".. HA! Good luck! You see everything in HO is "limited production" including Athearn...That means it may not be available shortly after it hits the streets.Try finding certain locomotive types or road names. IF you are caught up in this sound thing be warned..After the novelty wears off it becomes less appealing and has a tenancy to get annoying after 30 minutes of operation. HO has a lot of "eye candy" that looks good at first glance however,a 18 wheeler eats up a lot of space as does the road it runs on..Structures eat up a lot of space as well.A small depot can take up 10-1/2 x 5-1/8 x 3-3/8" whereas a small grain elevator can take up to 13-1/2 x 9 x 13-1/2" . See how HO structures gobbles up space? We won't even discuss space eating mountains,rivers,creeks and ponds. My N Scale elevator would be roughly 27" x 3 3/8" in HO.A space eating monster that would dwarf other buildings.That measurement doesn't include the needed track-at least 7'. Extreme you say? Perhaps but,larger industries in HO or N looks like they require rail service far more then a smaller industry that is dwarf by a 50' boxcar.. May I speak boldly? That 3.5/4 x 11' layout space would be better knocked down to a 2'x 11' HO ISL.That way you can use some of the longer freight cars especially if you are doing modern. IF I had your space... Even with my modest HO collection(I sold the majority of my HO) even tho' I am active in 1 HO club and inactive at the second I would still use N over HO simply because 3.5/4 x 11' isn't very much room other then that 2' x 11' ISL I mention.. Think long and hard before you leap because HO just might be a big disappointment for your space.
I saw one of the things you were worried about was applying paint and decals. And you are right to a certain extent - they can be harder to apply. But you get better as time goes on. I was talking with a local jeweler the other day and we were discussing diamond cutters. And he explained to me that jewelry makers have to train themselves to do the work they do. He said it was both physical and mental conditioning. He showed me how his left eye kind of looked up and to the left all the time. That was from constant examining of jewelry and stones. Now I'm not saying you'll go cross-eyed with N scale but you will train your body to be able to do the work. It takes time though. I am better at it now than I was ten years ago but I'm not nearly as good as those that have been doing it longer. Eric
I guess the one thing you haven't mentioned is what prototype you are modeling. I agree with some others - it's hard to imagine not being able to find what you want while modeling 1985. I used to be an avid HO modeler myself - however, moving to Texas and discovering that houses don't have basements forced me into the same decision you are now faced with. What can I accomplish in the space I have? I actually moved back my time period when I switched to N because I wanted shorter cars which means more cars on each train in the given space. I want my trains to really look like trains. I do a little bit of switching, which is a little more difficult in N, but I have really never regretted my choice to change scales. I do get envious when I see the huge variety of steam engines available in HO, but I am very happy with what I have. You will never hear me bash HO - the variety of products is astounding - but I am very happy my N stuff. Personally, I would take a really good look at what type of operations you want based on the railroad you want to model - I think there is where you will find your answer.
HO vs N I have both scales and find HO easier to work with due to my big clumsy fingers. Also, HO has more readily available options than N scale, although N scale is improving rapidly to compete. ( Joe from Pa.)
This may be one of the very few posts where I (complete novice) have something to offer, since I’m just getting started myself. I deliberated between N and HO as well, and I didn’t have any equipment in either scale, so it was wide open. For me the deciding factor was size. Not of the layout I am planning now, but of the “dream” or “next” layout that everyone wants and plans for. Being completely honest with myself, I know that unless I win the lottery or stumble across one of the rare houses in Arizona that have a basement, I’m almost certainly going to be limited to a spare bedroom for my “someday” layout. The one I’m planning now will be relatively small, and as far as operations and scenery will be full of compromises no matter which scale I choose. Form my next layout though, I want to have something I can really have fun building and operating, and that will hold my interest. When I look at the track plans here and in various magazines, I see a lot of fantastic HO layouts, but most of them are much larger than any space I expect to ever have. There seem to be many more N scale bedroom size layouts grab my attention, and even when I do stumble across a “smaller” HO layout that I like, I can’t help but think that I could do that in N, and have space left over for more. While it’s certainly possible I could be happy with HO, I feel like I’d always be fighting against space constraints. You mentioned that you don’t like waiting… well, my question would be this: which do you expect to happen first? 1) products/models that you want in N scale, or 2) you to have enough space to do what you want in HO. If you really expect to someday move or acquire enough space to build the layout you want in HO, then maybe that’s the direction for you. If you expect (like me) to always be struggling with space, then N gets my vote. Put another way, product availability bothers me too, but Kato, Atlas, and the others come out with new products all the time. As nice as it might be though... I really doubt any of them are going to announce an addition to my house at the next convention. Not sure what specific products you’re lacking, but for me there is more than I can reasonably afford already, with more coming out all the time. There are a few things I can’t find, but I’ll buy the other stuff on my list for now. Somehow I doubt I’ll run out of things to buy anytime soon, but when/if I do, that’s when the real pros on this board can help me find a way to make, fake, or kitbash it. Whichever way you go, hope you have fun and enjoy the ride. Harlan
