Newbie - early design stages - need help

Hello everyone,

First time poster, please be gentle.
Looking to get back into the hobby. Right now I'm building a static, non-powered display for a shelf upstairs. HO scale. I'm dipping my toe in the water and learning how to lay track and do some basic scenery with Woodland Scenic products.
I have also purchased a passenger train. These are pretty long Rapido coaches with a recommended minimum radius of 22".

So, I want to begin planning my first layout. I'll need to make room in the spare bedroom (going to have to move my RC planes). I'm pretty sure I'll have room for a 4 X 8 sheet. I could even manage a 5 X 8 work area. I'm not sure how practical that is since the sheet will need to be placed in the corner to maximize space in the room. I'm thinking it wouldn't be practical to try to reach across 4 or 5 feet. What is the typical solution to this problem?
I want it wide enough to have some realistic turns for the passenger train on an outside oval mainline.
Plan is to run two or three trains. One passenger and one freight at least.
1940s-1960's diesels. I have a Proto 2000 F3 for the passenger train. I'll likely get an F7 for freight.

Desires. I'd like two large ovals for mostly mainline running with a couple spurs inside the ovals. Not interested in urban settings for now. I'd like to model green natural areas. Perhaps a stream or river. Probably a tunnel in the corner (I know, real original). One passenger station on the outside oval somewhere. As for industry, I have a forestry background so I'd like to try to incorporate a logging scene and/or a mill. Maybe even a third small train taking logs to the mill.
I don't necessarily require grades/inclines... for this first run I don't mind a relatively flat track. I would like to create some interesting natural features, though... hills, ridge along the track, and possibly some gullies, and/or streams, etc.

Just some fun ideas. I think on top of the mountain/tunnel I'd like trees... make one or two look torched and a small wild-land firefighting crew up there (one of my jobs from my college days). Not sure were I'll get the model figures for that.

Also wouldn't mind making a small camping scene somewhere. I see they make little boy scout type figures. I've got a set of bear figures. Would be fun to model a "bear encounter" somewhere on the layout. Should be easy enough.

Here is what I was looking at for a layout:
http://www.thortrains.net/4holay4.html
Either the upper-right or the lower-left one. But, I'd like to consider making the layout more than 4 feet to accomodate larger radius turns. I guess this means I would be making my own turns with flextrack.

I've put in a couple hours on Atlas' track program. I tried to create a layout based on the link provided above and haven't been able to get it just right. By reading these forums today I learned about XtrkCad . Should I try to learn that instead? Or perhaps these are fairly well known layout types and there is already something out there?

I would greatly appreciate any guidance, thoughts, or criticisms. I'm still in the early planning and still trying to learn what I really want.

Thank you for your time,
Hammers

 

Welcome to TrainBoard!!!!!!!

:tb-biggrin: :tb-biggrin: :tb-biggrin: :tb-biggrin:
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For running longer equipment like your passenger trains I would give some thought so some sort of around the walls or donut style layout. It takes the same basic area as a sheet of plywood when you factor in walking area for humans and allows for bigger radius curves. While the trains may operate on down to a 22" radius they will look very toy like, so it's at least worth looking at other alternatives to the ol' 4'x8'

I'm absolutely horrible at layout planning but look at some of the examples in this forum or something like the Heart Of Georgia (H.O.G.) trackplan which you can find via google.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby!

 

There is no real option for a shelf or donut layout option. This is a room with shelves that line the wall. To even have room for a layout I'm going to have to eek out and eliminate either one or two 4 foot wide shelves. Going to be a serious challenge just to come up with a 5 x 8 space. That extra foot makes for quite a bit of change in radius. I could get into the mid to high 20 inches for the radius by adding that extra foot. I stared at that room for 45 minutes today... trying to envision moving things around and what not. Unfortunately this small/medium sized bedroom has to double as storage for various hobbies (camping, fishing, RC planes, photos, memorabilia, etc etc etc). Its also got a small card table for working on projects. That, and the aformentioned shelves lining the walls. Its going to be cramped... but, its what I've got to work with.

I just can't convince "the boss" to give up her guest bedroom that never gets used.

 

Genius. Absolute Genius. Diagonal placement is something I hadn't even visualized. Plus, I suppose I could work myself into the corner for maintenance needs. I'm going to have to see how that looks and what shelves I may need to move.
These shelves are the metal baker bread-rack type shelves. I can adjust the heights. To be honest, they're full of my stuff... so if I want to make room to utilize a shelf to expand an industrial area then I certainly could. I could change the heights on the shelf and extend a small cantilevered table into the shelf area with 2X4s. I'll definitely look into this sometime this weekend, thanks for the great ideas.

EDIT: Is there a way within XtrkCad to draw a room so that I can 1) play with placement and 2) illustrate to others the space I have to work with? I couldn't readily find that feature if it exists. I also have RTS 8.0 installed if that is better for this part of the project.

Thanks again!

 

Another thought. If the reason for the shelves is that you need them for storage, what about using the space under the layout for storage? If you did that, perhaps you could eliminate some shelves and use the wall space for your railroad. I have seen pictures of some nice "under layout" storage.

Regarding XTrkCad, I've found it fairly easy to learn and use. Be sure you get the latest version (4.0.2 currently). I think the best place for XTrkCad info is the The XTrkCAD Wiki. The first few lessons of the Beginner's Tutorial were all I needed to be off and running with the program.

- Jeff

 

Oh yeah, one of the very first things I thought of was undertrack storage... then I figured its a big sheet of plywood.... the only way I'm going to get to the other side is to go under it. But, if the diagonal idea works out, then I can put a sheet of ply under the layout.... maybe a foot and a half from the ground. That way I can store modeling / train stuff under there at least. Nothing too permanent in case I need to access the wiring underneath.

I went through the first half of the tutorials yesterday. I looked at the wiki, but it seems to be fairly light. I think I have a good handle on it now, though. I'll try to sketch out the room and post it.

 

Here is the room in its current layout.
The card table can be moved wherever. With some creative reorganizing I can probably get rid of one of the shelves.... either a 3 foot or a 4 foot, although the 4 foot shelves are nicer... the 3 foot are plastic shelving.

I tried to upload the xtrk file to this forum post, but it is not a supported format.

 

I took another crack at designing the preliminary layout. Still not sure how to work together some of the more complicated parts, but generally know where I want things to go. The top-center crossing / elevation were inspired by Mystere's layout in the First Annual International Winter Layout Party thread here:
http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=104664&page=19

I picked Atlas Code 83 because I see its commonly used, and I like the appearance.
Its mostly done with Flextrack and some of these curves have odd radii.
The outside-most curves are 28" while the one just inside of that are 25" curves. I hope that doesn't break some kind of rule or make things more complicated than they need be.

I have several gaps that I need to learn how to fill in with the software. I am ignorant of the options for turnouts and what the numbers mean. Things might fit together better if I selected different turnouts?

Any early input?

 

That's alright. Just realize that, because it's a twice-around, there's no route for a train that actually requires a 28" minimum.

 

Currently the longest rolling stock I own (the Rapido coaches) have a minimum of 18", a recommended 22", and probably look less toy-like the larger it gets from there.

I'm also not sure about the elevations. I took a guess that 3" is what is needed to on the overpass to clear the track and any normal HO rolling stock that might need to pass underneath. I tried for a 2% grade, but I'm not sure I could get the software to work it out. Maybe my run isn't long enough? I locked the height at the bottom of the curve on the South end to 0". Then I went to the top of the curve near where the bridge is and I set the height to 3 inches and told it to use a 2% gradient. However, I don't think it came out right. Parts of the track indicate 2% gradient and then other parts show numbers quite a bit higher. Perhaps my "run" isn't long enough to get to a 3 inch "rise" only using 2%.

I also may not have mentioned it, the grid squares on that screen shot are 1 foot. So, its 5 feet by 8 feet.

 

Hello,

I've been turning ideas in my mind and refining things a bit. Could use a dose of reality and some input.
Unfortunately with the space I have, a shelf or donut layout just won't work.
I'll have a 5X8 foot space with about a foot or so around the edges to squeeze into if need be.

Below is an image I have created with Anyrail. It just seemed easier to get the hang of than xtrckcad. The outside curves have a 28" radius. The inside is 25" or 26" I don't recall. The double track at the bottom is all at elevation 0. The outside track near the bridge and at the logging area in the upper-right is depressed 1 inch. The inside loop along the top is elevated 2 inches. I'll go for a 2 percent gradient on the curves. I may try to superelevate those curves.

Theme here is open and natural. Don't want an urban setting. One passenger and one "through freight" and then a smaller freight handling lumber operations.

What do you guys think? I had to make a lot of creative uses of flextrack to get it to work and I'm not really all that sure of what I'm doing. I have no real experience... haven't really had the opportunity to speak with anyone or see many layouts in person.

Input and criticism graciously received. Thanks in advance.
If any of you layout gurus are looking for something to do and want to help with tips or a rework, I would be very gratful.

EDIT: If you could buy one book to help with layouts and ideas (keeping in mind I have a 5ft by 8 ft area to work with) what book would that be?
If not a book, but a web page, please link.

 

The favorite site for island-style layouts seems to be http://www.cke1st.com/m_train2.htm Yes, they're N scale and smaller, but you can get lots of ideas. Not all of them are good, in my opinion, but they give you some idea of the variety that can be had in a given space.

My favorite layout design book (and considered one of the definitive ones) is John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation, but much of it is really only applicable to large layouts.

 

I wouldn't consider this a "large" layout. I've heard people mention that book before.
But really, since I need such large radius curves for my passenger coaches, I'm not going to get much "operational switching". Which I guess is fine for me.
Not sure thats the right book.
I just wish there was an easy way to find track plans for a 5X8 HO scale layout. Most of the ones I've seen have pretty tight curves and #4 switches... which is why I decided to try my hand at designing my own.

 

Maybe 101 Track Plans for model railroaders, by Linn Wescott, will have something that will inspire. If memory serves me well, The first 35 or so layouts will fit in that space.

 

Hi, I am no layout guru, but I have a few suggestions that may help.

Assuming your card table is the non folding variety, could you fit it underneath your layout when not in use?

It looks like you intend to operate this from only one side, bare that in mind when placing your industry spurs, I know from experience that having to repeatedly get round the back of a layout to couple that one stubborn coal hopper on the back mine track looses it's appeal quickly.

Perhaps an egg shaped main oval would leave you a bit more space in one corner for industries or other scenic interests.

Some other quick tips that I have found useful:

-Attach wheels to everything. Mobile layouts are much easier to work around.
-Hack off the corners. Hurts less when back in to the layout.
-Avoid track parallel to the layout edge. I find it somehow looks better. Your results may vary.
-Full scale plans. Life size plans have always helped me when designing. They don't even need to be on paper, just tape string to the floor.
-Alternate storage mechanism. Possibly too complex, but table layouts can be made to fold sideways, pivoting around one set of L shaped legs. Thus it becomes only as wide as the tallest scenery + base.

Keep going, I am sure you will come up with something you are happy with.

Douglas

 

Both of you, thanks so much for your input and help. I appreciate everyones suggestions.

I am trying to find alternate locations in the house so that I have better access to 3 edges of the layout. Putting the benchwork on wheels is a capital idea. However, since this will most likely be sitting on carpet, rolling it around will cause it to no longer be level, but for general cleaning, etc, I think that is an important consideration and certainly an easy thing to add.

I was looking at the 101 trackplans book here:
http://www.trainplayer.com/Site2/101 Track Plans.html
and there just might be some good ideas in there, although, from the thumbnails, none look to be exactly what I'm looking for... but maybe it will help with ideas.
The biggest thing that is constraining me here is trying to push for those 28" curves.

I think it will get to the point soon where trying to visualize all this in my head and trying to hash it out in a CAD program will have its limits. What I should probably do is go grab about 10 sections of flex track and lay them out on a sheet of plywood and just start seeing what it looks like. Maybe hack up some blue/pink foam as well... just see what works.
Although, string on the floor is brilliant as well. Its the simple things I never think of. That would probably go a long way to help visualizing.

You guys are a great help, please keep the ideas coming.
If anyone wants to take a look at the drawing there and tear it to pieces, please do. Tell me what might work better here or there. Especially that switchyard in the middle, I'm not sure I know what I was doing there.

 

Hmm, 5x8 in HO scale.. that is a tight space. CaptainCarbon suggested putting wheels on the layout, but didn't go into much detail. By wheels, I'm sure he meant casters which will work well on even thick carpet. Now, with that thought in mind, take your layout that was to be shoved up against the wall, and put it in the center of the room. Create a backdrop down the middle, and you have the illusion of quite a bit more space.
Or if you want even more than 5x8, make something like a folding ping pong table.

It seems like you just want to watch passenger trains go roundy round while maybe shuffeling a car or two here and there with a freight. With a divider down the center, you'll get that illusion that the trains are actually going somewhere.. rather than just chasing their tails. Your spurs and sidings will also be allowed more space for length as you can extend them into the corners of the layout rather than scrunching them into the middle.

You'll be able to walk around the entire layout giving at least 4 distinct scenes, and with the casters in place, when train time is over, you can shove that layout right up against that wall for storage.

You mentioned you've seen my layout in the layout party. While it was fun, and I love the layout, you better believe I'm creating a layout with a divider for the next party.

If I have some spare time in the next few days, I'll see if I cant throw an idea or two down in the ol' cad program.

Good luck!

 

Aye, you've got it. Mostly roundy round with the passenger train and a little switching and roundy round with the frieght.

I don't have any kind of space for a ping pong table anywhere. What I mean by not being level.. is even with casters.. its going to "pop" up out of the depressions that it'll made from sitting for awhile and as it settles during a session it'll settle unevenly. I can mitigate that partially by using larger diameter wheels.. but these rooms have some serious padding under the carpet.

The types of spaces I have available would only allow me to move the layout maybe a foot or two away from the wall.. nothing more. One of the things I miss about living in Michigan are basements. Nothing like that down here in Central Texas.

While I think putting in a divider would be cool, I'm just not sure how to envision it working. All I think of it doing is taking up more real-estate. I'm interested in creating an open-scenery type layout. I kind of like the idea of creating topography over most of the layout... like you did with yours.